Becoming an Old Zoo

Please note that parts of this transcript are automatically generated and contain many inaccuracies

Disclaimer

Announcer: The Zooier Than Thou podcast contains adult concepts and language and therefore should never be listened to by anybody. So if you’re not old enough to vote, buy a handgun, get married, incur crushing student loan debt, and join the Merchant Marines, maybe check us out when you do all of those things, preferably on the same day!

Theme Song

Kynophile: Hey, what can I say?

You’ve got me howlin’ at the moon!

Whoa, don’t you know that love is wild when you’re a zoo?

We’re Zooier Than Thou!

Oh yeah!

Intro/Emails

Toggle: Greetings, fellow zoos, and welcome to another creaking episode of Zooier Than Thou. I’m Toggle, and I remember 56K dial-up modems

Gar: And I’m Gar, and I started on 300 baud modems

Toggle: And we’ll be your hosts for this evening. And happy Pride Month for all you queers and steers out there. It is June, well, the end of June now. How have you been… Have you been celebrating at all?

Gar: Ah, been enjoying getting outside and seeing all the other people sharing their pride, showing who they are without hiding

Toggle: Absolutely. Hopefully you guys have had, a great time at your local Pride parades. the past couple years and going into the next couple years are gonna be our most important Pride months, in a very long time, I think. so I hope you guys are staying safe and having a lot of fun.

Gar: It’s a tough time everywhere, but, knowing that you have friends around helps everyone get through it

Toggle: That’s right. I will tell you what, let’s go ahead and jump right into emails because, and this is true, since the last episode, we have gotten 16 new emails. So our backlog is ever-growing, cause we can only do a few of these per episode.

Gar: Our first email is from Dempson who says, “Love you guys. This podcast is amazing. I got introduced to it. I’m a new zoo and I am loving this podcast. It makes me know that I’m not the only one and that I’m not alone.

I love you guys. After discovering myself and finding out I am zoo, I feel like I have more of a connection and love for animals than I used to. Your vibe is so kind and amazing.”

Toggle: All right. Well, we love you guys too, Dimson. Got, got a lot of love in that particular email. But I will tell you what, I really love to hear that when people, start exploring their zooiness, they find themselves with a greater appreciation and love for animals than they used to have, and I feel like that happened to me too when I started doing this podcast.

I feel like the whole world sort of opened up, like a whole new dimension to my relationship with animals. So it’s really cool that it happens to other people too.

Gar: Yeah, we all learned a new sense of our, uh, appreciation for and obligation to all the other people and animals around us

Toggle: Yeah So thanks again for writing in, Dimson. I hope you enjoy the rest of the show if you’ve just found us. let us know what your favorite episode is after you get done. The next email is from Envy the Jealous, who just found this podcast. Envy writes, “So I just discovered this podcast and just wanted to say you guys are cool.

Keep up the good work and keep doing what you’re doing. Sincerely, a feline-loving, shape-shifting homunculus.”

Gar: Thanks, Envy. We really love hearing that. We hope you find some episodes that speak to you and the cats you love

Toggle: Yeah. And I’ll tell you what, I have been trying to get Eggshell to watch Fullmetal Alchemist for actual literal years, and I think you’re, motivated me to just, force them to sit down and watch it. So, if anyone’s listening who doesn’t know, Envy is a, is a character from Fullmetal Alchemist, so it’s kind of cool to see that that person’s writing in to us.

Gar: Keep on listening, Envy. Our next email is from Dead with a quick question. “I’ve just come across Zooier Than Thou because I was listening to another podcast about zoophilia and bestiality. I have a question. As a male of 50 and into straight and heterosexual sex, is it odd that my main fantasy is to watch women with dogs?

I don’t want to force either the lady or the dog to do anything they don’t want to do. I just want to watch them. Maybe once the dog has finished, I’d like to show the lady how horny she made me with this little show. I do feel like it’s a strange thing, but at the same time, I know there’s men and women out there who enjoy watching their partners have heterosexual and homosexual sex, as well as men and women who enjoy sex with animals.

The main reason for my message is to thank you for the show. Like you say, I’ve only just found your podcast, but be sure I’ll be listening to each and every show you have done and will be doing so in the future. I hope you’re able to keep this going for as long as you’re able. Thanks again from the UK.”

Toggle: Well, thanks for writing in, I’m gonna say what I think, and then Gar, let me know what you think about this. So about your idea, so basically you’re into watching women have sex with animals.

To me, zoophilia or zoosexuality, uh, hinges on an actual attraction to animals, and then whatever flavor comes out of that comes after that. So primarily it’s focused on an attraction to animals. And then what I think you’re describing is more like an interest in voyeurism with the flavor of, bestiality mixed in.

So I would suggest this would not be zoosexuality or zoophilia. So strictly speaking, it would be more like, like a beasty form of voyeurism. What do you think? How would you interpret that?

Gar: That’s accurate. It’s very common for people to like to watch others having all kinds of sex. And, as far back as there has been porn, there has been porn of people with animals, too

Toggle: 100%. Yeah, I agree but yeah, it’s really actually not that strange. Like, you feel like it’s a strange thing. Voyeurism is probably one of the most common fetishes in the world, I would think. We all like to watch porn, right?

Gar: yeah, it’s pretty univers- uh, voyeurism is universal. but watching others does create a risk of putting pressure on them. They’re expected to be having sex not for their own pleasure and goals, but for the audience.

Toggle: Mm-hmm.

Gar: it’s especially fraught when animals are included because it risks marginalizing the needs and interests of the animal

Toggle: Right, in the interest of the viewer. Right. But, you know, I’ll tell you what, I think it’s really cool that someone with that interest is listening to “Zooier Than Thou.” You know, we talk about stuff from a very zooey, zoosexual perspective, the things that we are interested in, the things that we think are important and that matter.

And I think the fact of the matter is that most of the people who are interested in some form of sex with animals aren’t actually zoos. and I think it’s important that we are able to express the types of values and stuff to anyone who has that interest because they exist. We’re not gonna make them stop existing.

I think, it’s really cool to me to think that if someone was going to, into an encounter that involves sex with animals, they might be thinking of the stuff that we talk about on this show and, you know, considering things they might not normally have considered without the exposure. so I think that’s really cool

Gar: It’s very important when you’re thinking about watching anyone else have sex with an animal in real life to keep in mind that, it creates a lot of complicated issues. there’s both emotional issues for the person who’s engaging with the animal, as well as legal issues for everyone involved.

Toggle: Mm-hmm.

Gar: So it’s not something that should ever be considered, casually or to be entirely safe. we’re most concerned about the risk long-term to both people and animals involved with each other.

Toggle: Mm-hmm. I agree. We appreciate the question you asked, and we, hope to hear from you in the future

our final email is from Nameless Cat, who writes in about supporting organizations to add to their will. Nameless Cat writes: Hello. I want to start off by saying I love listening to your podcast. It has let me come to terms with my sexuality and gave me courage to reach out to others in the furry fandom.

In this way, I found out, sometimes accidentally, that several of my existing friends were zoos, and it really helped me strengthen these existing friendships. It also meant I had individuals with which I could openly discuss such sensitive topics, which was freeing.

As I am getting older, I plan to set up a will. However, I would like the majority of my estate going towards funding animal welfare and possibly organizations that are helping zoosexuals in tough situations or those that are working to set a positive public image of who we are. For each of these, are there any organizations that you would recommend?

Gar: that’s awesome to hear, Nameless Cat. supporting others around you is an important next step once you become friends and aware of the needs of your community.

Toggle: Mm-hmm.

Gar: There’s no large zoo defense organization to support financially. Unfortunately, this podcast isn’t set up for big donations, though there is a way to make regular contributions.

Look at donate.zoo.wtf for that

Toggle: Yeah, absolutely. And also, in terms of putting something in your will, I would say that’s something that you should be thinking about updating as time goes on, because things that don’t exist now might exist once you pass away. and things that exist now might not at that time.

So always be looking to tweak that, I think is probably important.

Gar: Definitely do make a will, and generally the sooner the better. Just putting your wishes in your own handwriting and signing and dating it, that’s called a holographic will, and it’s legal in many states and provinces. Look it up where you live.

Toggle: that said, if you do have the ability to speak with a lawyer about writing a will, it’s a very good idea because lawyers will think of things that you absolutely just would not have thought of in a million years.

so they’re a really good advocate to have when you’re trying to write a will and think about all the different corners that, you know, you might be missing, all of your blind spots. So they can help with that. But if you’re not gonna see a lawyer ever, you should at least write a will

Gar: When you’re looking at, supporting the community, start with the people and the domestic and wild animals in your community. A little support can go farthest among your neighbors who can’t reach out to the bigger groups American organizations, including the ASPCA, tend to take public positions that are intrinsically anti-zoo because in a practical sense, they have to.

The Humane Society of the United States in particular has a history of supporting anti-zoo legislation. PETA is one of the few organizations that recognize the importance of the autonomy and emotions of animals, but due to a variety of uncompromising positions and also due to a long meat industry campaign against them, PETA is often viewed negatively, even by zoos.

So what are some good alternatives? Programs to help queer youths are a good place to start. These include urban groups that support kids and young adults, plus bigger organizations like True Colors United. Also good are organizations that promote human rights, such as Lambda Legal, GLAAD, that’s G-L-A-A-D, and the Human Rights Campaign or HRC.

Toggle: It might seem almost counterintuitive to be like, “Oh, but these are queer organizations.” And I know some of our listeners have definitely expressed like, “Oh, it’s all the queer stuff and it’s Pride Month and you’re just shoehorning it in.” But, these are organizations that are most likely to affect people who are also, zoosexual, and they’re also the most likely to go to bat for the most fringe among the groups.

so that’s why these are really good recommendations

Gar: That’s right. there are some very large organizations that do important work for human rights and civil rights, such as the ACLU, but they’re usually not the ones who are gonna focus on helping individuals or the small, uh, less popular groups like us. Finally, the most important folks to support are the local animal welfare and adoption groups near you, especially the little ones that focus on elderly animals or the special needs animals and local wildlife

Toggle: Yeah, 100%. the smaller organizations are the ones that are least likely to have the funding that they really need. And so the contributions that you give to those small organizations are gonna be felt the hardest. They’re gonna be felt the most because they’re just simply more substantial for those, small, charities

Gar: Right. $20 or $100 is a drop in the bucket to a giant national or international organization, but it can mean the difference between being able to care for a local animal or person in need and not. Finally, if you have substantial savings well beyond your own needs, you should open an account in a donor-advised fund.

That kind of fund makes it easier to support nonprofit organizations, to stay anonymous, to save on taxes, and to ensure that good causes receive your support even after you pass away

Toggle: Yeah. So keep that in mind. Look it and definitely, I just, I just love to hear that someone is actually thinking about this ahead of time. And it actually kind of rolls really nicely into this month’s episode, which is about getting older, as a zoo, thinking about the types of things that you might not be thinking about in your 20s and even 30s, but as you become older, become more to the forefront.

and being able to think about these things earlier is actually beneficial, wouldn’t you say?

Gar: Yeah. There’s a long road ahead, the one that we hopefully will all walk down. it’s also useful to listen to the folks who are on the other end of that road, who are looking back and seeing the mistakes they made, the good decisions they made, and remembering the ones they loved in their lives

Toggle: So we have a, a wonderful panel of older zoos who have agreed to come and, talk about their lives, their experiences, and the lessons they’ve learned along the way. And so we hope that you will stick around and learn a thing or two, that you can take through your journey through life with the animals that you love. But first, we will be back with more Zooier Than Thou right after this!

Sponsors

Announcer: Zooier Than Thou is proudly sponsored by the AARP. That’s the “Appreciation of Amazing Rhinoceroses’ Penises.” Behold their impressive girth!

…By the letter G, for good golly, I’m a gray muzzle zoo!

…Also, by Ibuprophen. Do your knees ache after getting your cheeks clapped by a Great Pyrenees? Enjoy the non-steroidal anti-inflammatory goodness of Ibuprophen!

…And by listeners like you. To help support the Zooier Than Thou podcast, direct your browser to donate.zoo.wtf and send whatever you can. Everything helps!

Zoo Poetry Theater - “ Dogmatic Exercise”

Doodle: And now, Zooier Than Thou presents Zoo Poetry Theater.

Reader: Houndy, roundy, rumbling grace,

Golden grin and muddy face.

Howly, holy, wholly found,

Heart of Heaven, heel to ground.

Hush the leash and loose the psalm,

Tongue and temple, tooth and calm.

Paw-print prayer in puddled sand,

Halo hid in handler’s hand.

Hound of hunger, hound of heart,

Bark the world and call it art.

Snout to sky and tail to tone,

Every joy a borrowed bone.

Houndy, boundy, blessed bite,

Guard of dark and gift of light.

Sing, you sleek evangelist:

Love is what the muzzle kissed.

Doodle: This has been Zoo Poetry Theater.

Topic - Becoming an Old Zoo

Toggle: Welcome back, fellow zoos. It’s your boy Toggle, and I am here with my co-host Gar, and a lovely bunch of guests. Today, we have Kion, of course. You know Kion.

Kyon: Hmm, notorious

Toggle: notorious Kion.

Kyon: It’s quite a cretin

Toggle: our good friend Togo.

Togo: Hey, how’s it going?

Toggle: We have, Kets

Quetz: Hey Toggle, nice to be here

Toggle: Yeah, it’s good to have you. And last but not least, we have Flemin who’s joining us as well

Flehmen: I believe I’m also known as the Everpresent

Toggle: The ever-present Flemin.

Flehmen: Yep.

Toggle: I like that.

Togo: As long as it’s not the ever pleasant Phlegm

Flehmen: Oh, speaking of old people

Toggle: today our topic, in a general sense, we’re talking about what it’s like to be older as a zoo. is it correct to say everyone here is 50 and up except for me?

Kyon: Yeah, I’m afraid so

Quetz: believe so

Togo: Strange but true

Flehmen: I was born last century, yep

Toggle: oh. So, we’re excited to be able to hear some of your wisdom, some of the, the things you, you’ve lived through and you’ve learned and, some of the things that we might wanna be thinking about as we grow older. I am really close to 40 now, which is crazy. How did I get here? so I think this is gonna be really invaluable wisdom, and I’m excited to, have this conversation with you guys. So I think where I wanna start is when did you guys learn or figure out that you were zoo?

Gar: I know I was attracted, as a kid, and I became aware that other zoos were online when I was in my 20s, but I wasn’t able to self-identify that way. and I didn’t meet others until I was 30. I also didn’t make an attempt to make animals a big part of my life in my 20s. I don’t envy the people who became part of the zoo community as a teenager or in their 20s, because at that time, my life was filled with so many other activities

Toggle: Right. I think something that people don’t think about a lot is that it’s tough to have animals as a large part of your life when you’re young, because, they’re your responsibility at that point. and part of being young for a lot of people anyway is moving around and, experiencing things and going places, which is harder to do if you have animals tying you to a specific location, right?

Gar: you give up a lot of

Kyon: Oh, yeah

Flehmen: you also need to have the resources too, which something when I was 20, I could never have afforded a horse

Toggle: Right. which I’m so glad you’re here ‘cause we just don’t hear enough from our horse people.

Flehmen: I agree. I agree

Toggle: So exciting. Uh, how about you, Flemin? What was your, like, zoo discovery like?

Flehmen: So it’s interesting. I grew up in cities, so my interaction with horses was, like, zero. Uh, the first time I ever really interacted with a horse, there was a, uh, pony show, a little walk-around, show across the street from where I was living in a schoolyard. And I went over, and I was so excited to go over and ride this, these ponies, and I just, I bawled my freaking eyes out.

Toggle: Oh.

Flehmen: There was something wrong with what was going on. None of the horses were happy. So that was my first experience with horses. Having said that, though,

Toggle: Wow

Flehmen: I pretty much grew into loving horses during puberty. Like, when all my friends were going to, Hustler and Playboy magazine, I opened up the Big Book of Horses, and I tell you, there were some sexy horses in that book. well, it’s true. It’s absolutely true. the one thing that, that I learned very quickly is when I discussed anything about this with anybody, it was obvious that e- no one else felt this way. So, uh, that was a little isolating. Didn’t

stop me from being me

Toggle: I’m curious about that ‘cause, like, how do you approach that with other people not knowing that it’s weird, you know?

Flehmen: Well, it’s, it’s interesting because it’s not, not knowing it’s weird and other people don’t think that way. that has sort of been a philosophy for my entire life. Other people aren’t gonna know you’re zoo until you tell them. Like, they’re not gonna guess that it goes that far. And that’s really what happened.

I’d, say, “Hey, this is a pretty sexy horse,” and they’d go, “Uh-huh,” you know, “Yeah, I guess.” And then they’d talk about boobs or something and, you know, I’d go, “Okay, yeah, boobs are m- not my thing, but I understand.” And, and it just, it never, I never pushed it, I guess, when I was younger, so it never became a real issue.

Like, people are completely oblivious to what they don’t know

Toggle: Right. Yeah, Now, you grew up in cities. Toggle, you had a completely different, upbringing, right?

Togo: my mom was, very into, horses. And, you know, maybe, there’s something in the water or these kind of things, run in families, you know, ‘ so anyway, her, goal was, uh, as a young woman, was to have a horse farm. And so, I’ve been around, horses, for as long as I can remember, we bought the farm that I grew up on in the late ’60s, and, horses and other animals were always a part of our life.

I would say my mom probably had kind of a, a liberal perspective in, how to raise children in that, instead of, feeding me, uh, bullshit about, why the sun comes up, you know, it’s a giant spaghetti monster in the sky makes the sun come up. It’s like, “Here, read this book,” and figure it out.

so that was kind of, how I was raised was that, given, you know, factual answers to questions and, that included, you know, well, you know, where do baby horses come from, you know, and, seeing how, a stallion covers a, a mare you know, being a part of that, I think, people that grew up in, uh, rural communities, you know, they see, you know, the cycle of life and you can’t help but to, have that kind of, burned into, your mind’s eye.

Toggle: The heathen devil knowledge.

Flehmen: Ain’t that the

Togo: Yes. I remember having a book, I think it was in third or fourth grade, Everything You Wanted To Know About Sex But Were, Afraid To Ask.”

and that left, nothing to the imagination.

Toggle: Well.

Gar: Before the internet, the paper books mattered a lot

Togo: and unfortunately, I’m a dog zoo. I’m, very devoted to canines and, My mom did not like dogs ‘cause, dogs would chase horses, she didn’t want the horses to become stressed. And, so I did not get a dog until, after I’d run away from home after being, caught for, my zoophilic, activities.

Toggle: Oh my God.

So wait, how old were you when you got caught?

Togo: I was 14, so

Toggle: Wow

Togo: I had one regular German shepherd boyfriend, and then, my, uncle, him and his wife had a German shepherd who I had a terrible crush on. And so two days in a row, uh, I got caught with two different German shepherds.

Toggle: Oh, no.

Kyon: I appreciate the choice of breed, of course,

Gar: Fi- finding cheap thrills was, uh, a big challenge. I

Togo: yes. Yes, it

Gar: you go to a public library and then you search the stacks for a book with some reference, even just a, a paragraph or

Kyon: Like, about werewolves.

Flehmen: I will just say when I went to my university library there, I tell you they had an extensive selection of excellent works for that sort of purpose

Toggle: Purient interests that aren’t supposed to be purient.

Togo: I went through that phase as well, going to the library. “Oh my God, look through the index. Is there anything about bestiality in here?” So yeah,

Flehmen: This is why old zoos know the Dewey Decimal System, by the way

Toggle: Now, I will say you– so Togo, you grew up with someone who basically fed your curiosity with knowledge. Kian, you grew up in a more religious family, right?

Kyon: I did, but it was, it’s almost perplexing because so many people who grow up in religious families, their families express a lot of opinions, you know, like about other people that are gay or whatever. Um, my family did not discuss that at all. It was never a topic of discussion at all, uh, which left me kind of in the lurch as far as understanding how to deal with sexuality.

About all I figured out was don’t let any person know, right? That was essentially like, don’t play with people, don’t pet people, don’t tell people, right?

Toggle: Hmm.

Kyon: the first, uh, uh, entity to show direct, sexual interest in me was a dog. And I liked that. And, and I think it’s interesting that right at, this is like on the cusp of 11 or 12 years old, just when I was coming into puberty, then this dog is the one thing that ever showed any sexual interest in me.

And I think that, that was a big turning point in that respect, that I didn’t feel like I could talk to anybody.

Toggle: Wow.

Kyon: There, there was no discussion on, of it at all, and there was no shame about dogs in particular because the subject was never broached

I, I was a good little Mormon boy as far as everything else was concerned.

Toggle: So as you know, like, religious abstinence education leads to bestiality. So that’s basically the moral of the story of your life.

Kyon: Exactly.

Flehmen: it’s a, it’s a really rough, life to live Maquette,

Toggle: when did you realize that you were a zoo?

Quetz: Well, when I was young, my mom tells me that whenever I went, to sleep, I had to be touching fur, and I would curl up with animals. we had cats.

Toggle: Oh

Quetz: but I never had any sexual experiences with animals or humans, when I was living at home. And it wasn’t until, like, I, I would fantasize about animals as I was going through puberty, but, I just figured that was something everyone did.

And I still don’t know that that’s not true. People might just not admit it.

Flehmen: That’s a very good point. I

believe

Toggle: a good point. It’s a good point

Kyon: Yeah, it seem- seems legit to me

Quetz: Like, I never saw any, BCLE pornography, back then, because the internet wasn’t around yet. the internet was kind of developed when I was in college, and so I started seeing it then and started to think that, like, this would… is something that other people did. but I still didn’t have, any experiences with people or animals until after college.

I started talking to other people in some chat rooms, and so that’s how I found out that, like, a zoo community was a thing. And then, uh, shortly after college when I was 23, I had talked to another zoo that was in the area that I was going to college and actually met him in real life, which was really scary.

And, uh, And then Togo here was the second person, who lived with the first person I talked to.

Toggle: Oh.

That’s fun They go way back

Togo: small world.

Toggle: I was gonna say, yeah, like when I started trying to explore that, obviously the internet was full-blown. things were still in dial-up. it’s so interesting how different that is because it’s not a matter of like having to like piece together things in the, library and trying to just figure out where I can find little snippets of stuff.

It was very much like, I, I feel like I got on an AltaVista search and just went for it. And

Kyon: Fire hose. Oh, you want bestiality porn? Here’s a feed. Blast.

Togo: Kabloom

Flehmen: Back when the internet was free

Kyon: Yeah.

Toggle: It was a wild west.

Kyon: Oh man. You know, I’m not for sure that I was actually talking about bestiality at the time, but I was on CompuServe’s CB simulator, which predates America Online chat. And, uh, I am reasonably sure that I was making connections with zoos through that chat back then. It was just like I was literally like 14 or 15 at the time, so.

And you know, you didn’t have to say that you were young, right? And nobody really cared if they knew. It was, uh, not nearly as paranoid as it is now.

Toggle: Oh, dear

Togo: Heh.

Flehmen: that’s my experience as well. Yeah, I was 14, 15, I was providing to the city I was living in, I was providing Usenet feeds, via modem. and it was all kinds of Usenet feeds, just saying.

Toggle: Wow.

Gar: But each time the technology got easier and more accessible, the community would grow by an order of magnitude

Toggle: Yeah, I imagine so. I was gonna say actually, you know, thinking about it, like the old community versus the new community, ‘cause now I think a lot of the people who listen to this, their first exposure to the zoo community is like Zooier Than Thou and like the, the various forums that exist.

What, what differences do you guys see from like the current community versus the community when you were, just discovering it?

Gar: We’ve talked in other episodes about the early technology, like, uh, first dial-up bulletin boards and later Usenet newsgroups.

Flehmen: FidoNet, FidoNet. You gotta mention FidoNet. To zoo, to zoo podcast, just saying

Gar: th-that and IRC and talkers. so when, when zoos were first finding each other online in the ’90s, they tended to be more experienced because it wasn’t just sort of people coming of age and doing their first searches. you could be 20 or you could be 40 or 50, and suddenly you have the ability to find other, other people online.

many already had their animals, uh, often horses.

Toggle: That’s interesting. Often horses, ‘cause God forbid we can’t we find any fucking horses to talk to now.

Kyon: Well, you know, something about the affluence of people who are affluent enough to have horses versus also the having the affluence to be online, especially back in the earlier days, there’s some correlation there.

Flehmen: There’s a key point, yeah.

Toggle: That makes sense. does anyone have experience with the community before the internet allowed it to kind of like explode?

Flehmen: I have some stories. So I met a horse zoo, uh, just after getting online, but he was already… I was 20. he was 65

Toggle: Wow.

Flehmen: He had me– I actually moved to his farm and I spent a good four or five years there taking care of his horses and, and cutting his grass and pounding fence posts and whatever, whatever you’d have on a farm, on a horse farm.

A, uh, horse breeding farm. Don’t know why that was a thing. Yeah, he gave me lots and lots of good experiences, but he gave me some stories about how he would meet people. So one of the things he did long time ago was he was involved in the, um, muscle groups. So all the weightlifters and all the Bodybuilders, there we go. That’s the word I was looking for. who’d get all oiled up and he said absolutely without a doubt 90% of those guys were gay, without a doubt, but they all had wives.

Toggle: Oh

no

Flehmen: he was in that community ‘cause he was a photographer and he was taking pictures for them. But he said– It wasn’t a normal thing, but it wasn’t an abnormal thing to be interested in animals.

And so in the backs of muscle magazines where there was essentially a meat market for gay people, there was also often an ad saying, “I love horses,” or, “I love dogs.” And, and people would meet up that way. I know for, for modern sensibilities that sounds pretty nasty to, to visit someone just for their animals, and that really wasn’t what was going on.

It was getting to know people in the community, and the only way to do that was to go and meet them, right? And to, to have a reason to meet them.

Toggle: ‘ that’s not a time where you can jump on a chat room. and, you know, maybe that’s not something you wanna do over a phone call either,

Flehmen: Well, phone calls were also very expensive unless you were calling locally, right? That was a

time when long distance was a thing.

Toggle: Oh my God

Flehmen: that’s something I still have trouble getting used to ‘cause I, I keep thinking I should call him because he’s still, he’s in a home now. He’s 95.

I really should call him. the other thing though that I noticed while I was on his farm and some of the things that he told me is that the people who are most involved with animals are almost, I would say, 50% zoo.

Like for example, the president of the Quarter Horse Association, I met him

Toggle: The president of the what?

Flehmen: It was a Quarter Horse Association. And he was, absolutely zoo.

Like he wouldn’t tell anybody. He’d have to get to know you and be a friend of yours for some time before you’d ever get access to that part of his life. So friendships were long-term. You have to spend years getting to know people. Where on the internet nowadays, I mean, I mean, I was posting on Twitter that I was, you know, boffing horses, so anybody who knew me knew that I was doing that.

So it’s a very different atmosphere, I thought.

Toggle: Right.

Gar: that’s, quite different from now. These days, we see the zoo community as very much overlapping or even being a subset of the furry world.

But go back a few decades, and the overlap of zoos with other communities were common, but they weren’t furs

Toggle: what communities would you… I mean, the muscle people, and I guess, you know, the queer community in general, there, there was just kind of like, it existed somewhere in there, right?

Gar: Yeah, and folks who bred and showed animals, for example

Toggle: Right. I guess what the internet did, there’s a couple things. Uh, first of all, furries weren’t really a big thing before the internet either. It’s another community that sort of exploded with the advent of the internet. So they, they sort of existed, but then the internet allowed people to, to connect.

And I think perhaps the other thing that the internet allowed was that people who were not necessarily connected to the animal world but still were attracted to animals suddenly have access to each other,

Flehmen: I think that’s very valid. And, and to be honest, like I’m furry adjacent. I’m not furry myself. And one of the things that old horse people are not is furry. I wouldn’t say that they, they have a disdain for it. They don’t understand it, and it is not part of their life. They’re busy looking after their horses.

So that’s, I think, one of the reasons why you don’t get a lot of older horse zoos around on the podcast

Toggle: might be it. They’re

Flehmen: it’s fair. And I have nothing against furries at all. I’m just saying that’s just a fact of life, I think

Gar: I also don’t see myself as part of the furry fandom. I don’t know if Togo does

Togo: yeah, I, I identify as a fur. I have other characters and, been involved Yeah, I was gonna say, I would be really surprised if Togo wasn’t a furry.

Flehmen: It’s okay to be a furry. We don’t judge here

Togo: Oh, well, you know. But, you know, when I, when I hopped on the internet and found, zoo, and I found furry like 10 minutes after that, so, you know, I was like, “Oh my God, where’s this art?” And, and it was, uh, an artist by the name of, uh, Werewolf, so I’m sure that might poke a couple people there.

Yeah. And, I was like, “Oh my God, where’d this come from?” And then, uh, you know, found more and more stuff. And then, once I got on the, uh, zoo chatters, heard people talking about things like Furry MUCK and, the first con out in California. What back in the day.

and it just seemed like, uh, there was a really significant presence of, a lot of people had a foot in both, both ponds, so to speak, and, helped organize the, the cons and had, you know, a fairly open presence. And that was just really, it’s like, wow, you know, really, seemed like an unprecedented level of, of, acceptance.

the only way I can describe it for like the first three years I was on the internet and, uh, having found the zoo community, I felt like I was, it was just a, a constant state of euphoria. my housemate at the time when I, when I got on the internet and, found other zoos, was like, “Wow, this is really cool,” you know, ‘cause I like came out to him and came out to several other close friends and it’s like, “Hey, I finally found my community.”

And, a few months after that actually had a gathering at my house and, uh, “Gathering, please come to my house. Let’s have a party, a zoo party.” And, um, and, uh, and he was just absolutely fascinated by, you know, the stories, that people would share with him, you know. And it just, it was just such you know, a breath of fresh air to suddenly, you know, feel a part of this community and the furry and to, you know, really have that, call it an epiphany or, revelation you know, it’s just really– It was just so hard to describe or put into words how elated I was, to hop in and, and find so many other people that, had, you know, some similar experience to one degree or another.

It was just, entirely liberating. It was

like landing on

another planet.

Toggle: I think that’s something that a lot of people, that discover the zoo community really start to feel. it’s certainly something I’ve heard a lot in emails to this very podcast. so I think even now that sort of euphoria exists, but like, I think it’s a little bit different ‘cause I, the way you, you actually like interacted with the community a lot was in these gatherings, right?

Is that right?

Togo: Yes. Yeah, exactly. Uh-huh

Flehmen: Yeah, for sure

Kyon: I wanna make the point that it’s kind of like back in the day you’d go to the movies to see the news and stuff. There was no television, right? You couldn’t just get online especially when you have got people who spent their whole lives getting to know people in person, you know?

Toggle: Right.

Kyon: And th- these days there’s a much more isolation factor in,

people interacting.

It’s like you wanna interact with somebody, it’s like they’re always far away, right?

Toggle: Yeah, I definitely feel that 100%. I was gonna say, do you guys feel connected to the zoo community that exists now?

Flehmen: No, I, I, made a choice to step away, when the community started fighting itself. I finally got tired of it, and I feel a part of the community, but I don’t feel in the community, I guess, if that makes sense

Toggle: Hmm. yeah. It’s kinda like with furries. This happens with furries too. Yeah, I’m a furry, but I’m not part of that community because they’re, all of the bullshit happening over there is really just not my thing. Just gonna do my thing over here

Togo: Yep. Yeah, my perspective is, I’m pretty active in the local, zoo community where I live. There’s quite a few people that have known each other for a very long time, but, you know, the broader brouhaha you know, constantly, uh, re-erupt and shift and change and what have you, you know, not so much ‘cause, you know, you know, kinda feel that kinda did my, uh, part for king and country in the, in the ’90s, you know, on, on Usenet and, you know, we hosted our own talker and, you know, were really embroiled in, in the, you know, so-called politics you know, back then.

So we’ll let, let them young whippersnappers, deal with the, the strife and the conflict

Gar: I stepped away for a number of years after being an early organizer. in the last couple of years, I’ve gotten more involved, but the community’s very different now. It’s very much like the furry fandom as far as how social events happen.

Toggle: Oh, that’s interesting. So when you say it’s like the furry fandom how social events happen, what does that mean?

Gar: It’s a very partying, youth-oriented culture. it’s not a culture where, you know, people meet up with their animals just to be social at someone’s ranch or in a park. Instead, it’s more the type of activities that, uh, young furries having fun would engage in.

Toggle: I think that makes a lot of sense. I’ve observed that as well, and I think also I’ve observed that there’s a fear of having animals at zoo gatherings. And not like a fear of the other zoos, but the fear of like the perception of like, you know, we, we are on the up and up.

Like this is not a meeting to have sex with animals. This is like we’re meeting to have community type of thing. And so like the idea of like an animal being present in that is like, “Oh no, we don’t want people to get the wrong idea,” type of thing.

Quetz: I don’t know how much of it’s like a lot of the furries are just younger people and, and people in their teens and 20s are just into going to parties and listening to music and drinking beer and smoking pot instead of, you know, just talking to people. Like back when I first started interacting with zoos, it was like you went to a party that was the same people that you saw last week and the week before, and you spend hours and hours talking to these few people, and you develop deeper relationships with them instead of going to a party where there’s 40 other people and maybe you talk to someone for a couple of hours and then maybe you’ll see them again at some day,

Toggle: Right. And yet, yeah, that’s a, that’s a lot of what, the zoo meetups at furry gatherings are like because those things happen annually, rather than, like, being a part of, like, a local community or, you know, being, like, a, a particularly tight-knit group of people. so that’s interesting. Now, I g- I guess that makes me wonder, given that the, the community has changed in this way, what social groups do you guys rely on now, as older people who have had, had this type of experience and then, you know, h- how things have changed?

What, what is it like for you guys now? Who are you, who are you relying on?

Quetz: I mean, I’ve got a housemate that, is supportive. I mean, it’s also a zoo, but that’s not, not really my point. Like, like I think it’s important to have a housemate or a partner, that can help you take care of animals and understands your life situation. But I kinda feel like I don’t need my social group outside of that to like know I’m zoo.

Like I’m fine hanging out with other zoos and I like keeping in contact with people that I knew from the day, but like I don’t feel like I have to go out and hang out with zoos all the time.

Kyon: with, yeah, I’m with you on that

Toggle: I feel like as I get older, it’s the opposite for me. I’m like, I don’t wanna have to explain myself to people. I just wanna be in a space where, like, me being me is, is how it is, and it’s just fine.

Quetz: Like, there’s nothing about being a zoo that, like, is obvious to outside people that I would need to explain anything. Like, you know, no one bats an eye if you have a dog and you, like, hug your dog and walk your dog constantly and say, “I have to go home to be with my dog.” I mean, no one says anything about it.

It’s not like, like if you’re gay or trans or something, you’re like, you’re that way out in the world meeting other people, and so, like, there’s a lot of hate directed at you and you have to deal with that. And so I feel like support for those communities is more important than, you know, if you have a dog, no one cares.

No one will ever say anything about it

Toggle: Right, then that might be it. It might be just because, that’s another part of, the queer experience, so that could make sense.

Gar: yeah. I mean, I’ve, I’ve long had zoo housemates, and other housemates who weren’t, but who were aware. and I’ve made sure my girlfriends knew I was zoo because there’s just too much stress in trying to hide from the people you see frequently. Aside from that, a few local zoo friends has been enough community much of the time.

Toggle: And that’s interesting you mention that, like a local zoo community has been enough. And I think just based on some of the emails we’ve gotten, a lot of people are like, “I don’t have anyone local. I don’t know local people.” and I think that’s a real struggle for modern zoos as well.

Quetz: I mean, it’s certainly a lot easier if you live near a city like any other group. Like the more people that are in your local area, the higher percentage of them are gonna be zoos that you can meet. If you, you know, live out in the country, it’s gonna be really hard to meet anyone

Flehmen: Hence why we never hear from horses. Just saying

I was kind of, kinda lucky. I met my wife, through, through a mutual zoo friend, so she actually knew I was zoo before she ever met me. And appar- apparently I was very kind to her at the time, and, decided to get to know me. So it was, it was actually quite funny. The thing that brought us together is her newly purchased dog peed all over me while I was sleeping in my sleeping bag And so she felt, she felt indebted to me for taking it so well.

And I mean, it’s, it was good. It was fine. It was, it was good. She was a nice dog, just saying. yeah, we’re now, we’re now getting close to 30 years together. So,

you know, there’s been some rough patches and some good patches and never really had to hide locally. So I’ve never really felt the need for a local zoo social group.

I think it was said before about the fact that sexuality is much less a driving factor in my life and my, my interests and my, my job and my life are much more overriding. and of course I did have a mare for, gosh, she was with me for, for 15 years. She just recently died and it was, um, it was really hard, but, you know, right now I’m no longer really, doing sex as a thing.

So a zoo community for me has sort of been a, not as, as necessary as it once was.

Gar: My heart goes out to the people who spend their lives hiding from their spouse or their partner,

this important Me too. Yep. Absolutely

Toggle: it is a, a wonderful thing to have a partner who understands you and accepts you, but then also who is, like, a part of the same community even. It’s a, that’s a whole ‘nother step there.

Kyon: I agree on the, the matter of having a, supportive mate. I did for 29 years and, uh, it, a lot of my not particularly need to drive into doing a lot of zoo community is that I didn’t have any conflict on that. I didn’t feel like I was repressed on it, I think

Toggle: Now, talking about having companion animals and, you know, their health, what about as you guys get older, and I, I know some of you may have companion animals, some of them recently passed away. th- what kind of considerations are you thinking about when it comes to animals in your life, you know, in your 50s or your 60s and, and beyond? Because I’m gonna be there soon, right?

Not too long.

Gar: mean, I, I hope that I’ll have the energy to keep up with a young animal. Um, you know, I’d love to be able to take care of them as they become old, but I don’t think anyone can be so certain that as we get to 70 or 80 years old, um, that we’ll really be able to keep up with them and take care of them and give them the life they need. Um

Toggle: Right

Flehmen: I think that’s a call out for all of us to take better care of ourselves though. Like, I’ve recently started doing some, some core strength, uh, exercises to try to make sure that my body’s ready for whatever comes in 20 years. I, I do this because, uh, a, a friend of mine, a neighbor, um, broke her hip and she recovered really, really quickly.

But she was walking every day and she was doing things and, and she was able to recover. Her doctor’s flabbergasted at how well she’s recovered and that showed me that I was not in the shape I need to be in case something happens. So that’s always good advice regardless of whether or not you’re a zooer or you have animals in your life

Toggle: Yeah

Gar: Ultimately, to say that we love animals also means at some point we have to be willing to stop being optimistic and start acknowledging my health is no longer such that I can count on being here in 10 years. At this point, my time with fur should be with, you know, animals that aren’t my dependents

Toggle: Right.

Kyon: I think there’s a degree of the dog will deal with, they’re accepting of you. Like, it’s kind of like how children are very resilient in that they pretty much just accept whatever’s in front of them. I mean, the dog’s gonna accept you being old and slow ‘cause that, you know, what else, what else is he gonna do?

Toggle: Well, yeah, but then, you know, as, the human taking care of the dog, it’s like sometimes I feel ‘cause I’m a little bit out of shape. I have a hard time keeping up with one of my dogs because he is younger, and full of energy, and I just don’t have the energy.

Kyon: So, It’s true.

Quetz: notoriously

Kyon: yes. Mm-hmm.

Flehmen: They, they even have automatic buckets. You can drink a beer while they’re, they’re dropping the ball in the automatic bucket and fetching them with themselves.

Kyon: Nice. Mm-hmm

Flehmen: Having said that, though, I, I do think maybe we as zoos need to spend more time learning from our animals, and live more in the present than in the possible future or the horrendous past, and accept that moving forward that let’s live in the present and let’s take the chances and do the things that we want to do, and take the time to make the time we have a wonderful place for our animals

Quetz: I mean, you should always have a succession plan for who’s gonna take care of your animals if you die. Even if you’re not old, anyone could die at any time. And so, like, it’s a special problem if you are living alone with animals and you don’t have any friends. That would be like, what, what would happen to your animals if you died?

Toggle: Right

Quetz: know, if you, if you have a younger partner or roommate or a living situation and you’re confident that they could take care of your animals if you die, then like your personal health is less of an issue, I think, in that case.

Toggle: Right

Togo: Yeah. I think it’s important that, you know, in your final will and testament that you have someone designated, your animal’s advocates, especially if you have, you know, animals that, you know, require special care, special needs.

So, you know, however, your retirement is structured, you know, have a portion of that say, “Hey, here’s $10,000 to, care for these animals until they can, placed or end up with, someone who can care for them properly.”

Toggle: Right.

Yeah,

Flehmen: Well, I mean, you know, my 90-year-old zoo friend, he’s in a home. He had to sell his farm. He had a helping hand who was 50-ish, and that guy had a, heart attack, and he’s also now not able to take care of the farm. So they’re both still friends, but he had to get rid of his farm and get rid of all his horses.

And by get rid of, he sold it to, off to another breeder, so they’re, they’re fine. But he had to make that choice. Now, he was 85 when he ended up having to do that, ‘cause he did have this 50-year-old who was taking care of the place for him. I think that’s just a natural outcome, and I, I think for me, one of the reasons why he, I think he offered me my job when I was 20 was he was hoping I would stay around for 50 years.

you know, and it’s– I, there’s no guarantee ever, and when it comes right down to it, I personally think it’s unfair to expect your kids to support you in your old age. No, seriously,

Toggle: I mean, I think the caveat to that particular thing is that you’ve built up enough goodwill with your family members that they want to take care of you.

Flehmen: Okay, just wait a sec. Are you saying zoos have to be social with people?

Are, are you sure? Are you sure about that? Yeah. N- uh, then it’s true. Yes, you do. As a zoo, you should have friends, even if you hate people, which sometimes I do. You still need people around you, that community to, to help take care of you because you never know.

At the age of 30, you do not know if you’re gonna make it to 35. You simply don’t, and it’s, it’s, it’s tough to realize, and I certainly didn’t realize it. I didn’t realize it until I was about 45 and a friend of mine died, even though there had been signs when I was 25. somebody at work, he was a health buff, jogging, running. He was running up the steps going into work, dropped dead. His heart gave out. He was 25-ish maybe, right? People, people die all the time. We just don’t think about it ‘cause we’re human, and we don’t like thinking about it, so we don’t think about it.

So that’s one of my big advices for, for everybody who, who loves animals but maybe not so much humans. Think about just reaching out and making those connections. It, helps long term for anything that might happen. Even if it’s just a bad thunderstorm or tornado or ice storm or whatever, those connections always help.

People will check in on you, and you can check in on them, and

Toggle: We’re big advocates of forming a strong support network. And, you know, it doesn’t necessarily have to be zoos in your life, right? But someone, someone that you can rely on, that you can fall back on, because no man is an island, right?

Gar: There, there’s a lot of fear and loneliness, especially among, uh, older people who don’t have a partner

Toggle: Right

Gar: Right. Flemming, do you think had you not been married that you might have eventually stayed on that property?

Flehmen: I think about that fairly often and, um, yeah, I think I may have. it would’ve become more difficult as I age ‘cause I didn’t really have a career. Like I, I worked on a horse breeding farm for the one guy, right? So while I was always employed, I didn’t really have a career. So how do I afford a farm like that, especially in this day and age?

So I think the farm may have gone earlier. Well, I mean, he was still around, so it wouldn’t have gone any earlier, but it would’ve, wouldn’t have been something I could maintain ‘cause I would not have had a life of my own to maintain it.

Kyon: being able to just, even if it’s not zoo, it’s like show up. It, it, there’s a lot of value to showing up, and

Gar: Absolutely.

Kyon: Finding, a community to show up in, even if it’s just once a week where you hang out and do whatever, it really makes a big difference ‘cause it gives you that constant exposure to your community, to, to real people in real life, which is so much more better than this isolation of, of talking to people online where you can talk to exactly the demographic you’re interested in, zoo, but they’re not likely to be anywhere close.

the people here are here, and there’s a lot of value to having people around you, even if they don’t know that you’re fucking the dog.

Flehmen: I would have to absolutely agree that as a zoo, have other interests or have a non-zoo animal community you’re part of if your only interest is animals. Have that community available to you, um, because any of that will help you in the long term,

Gar: There is also, yeah, there is also great value in having that community that Flemin advocates for also know how important your animals are to you. That doesn’t mean coming out as zoo, but it means letting them see and hear how much you are devoted to your animals. Because eventually there’ll be the time your animal is sick or you need help paying a bill, and they are just as likely to come to your aid as your zoo or furry friends are

Toggle: 100%. And I think, you know, it’s really easy to get stuck like you put all your eggs in one basket with one community, and that leaves you a little bit more vulnerable, because if you lose that community for some reason, then you don’t got anyone else.

If you don’t have anyone else to go to, you’re starting from square one, and that can be really difficult. So I know pretty much all of you have other interests. Lean into other communities as well, I think is really the advice here.

Not everyone in your life has to be zoo. So this, uh, kind of brings me to the next thing I wanted to talk about, ‘ when we talk about how our lives go and how they’ve kind of, evolved, you are far enough along above some of our listeners who are in their 18, 19, what are some of the best decisions that you’ve made and, and some of the things that you’ve regretted that you wish you could go back and do again, um, that might be beneficial for, zoos to think about?

Flehmen: As, as considering retirement, I’m just gonna say there’s another period in your life and that’s before you get too old to travel but after you retire. Now, as a Canadian, I actually have a, a pension and stuff. I don’t know how it works in the rest of the world, but like my plan is to do some of that now that I am, post-work and I am post having an animal.

So that’s some of my consideration. But I think I alluded to my bad decision, earlier when I said that make sure that you don’t put rules on yourself that make you wait for something that you deserve and that you need and that you want just because it’ll be better in the future. It may be, it may not be, but you’ve got to allow yourself to live your life as you need to.

So with the caveat that maybe you do wanna travel, maybe you do have other needs earlier in your life, when you h- make that decision, commit to it and let it happen. Don’t be scared of it

Kyon: I’d recommend adventure. I do not recommend breaking arms

Flehmen: Well, at least not your own arm, right? Other people’s arms are okay?

Kyon: that’s true, that’s true. Uh, if you wanna go on an adventure with me, we can agree that my arms won’t be broken

Togo: Mm-hmm.

Gar: When I started meeting other zoos, I assumed that as they became friends and I liked and trusted them, that they were good people. And occasionally it would take many years to learn that some of the people that I would have vouched for were actually not kind to animals and were not even kind to other people one of the hard lessons in life is gut reactions and trust and friendship are important, and they’re not to be avoided, but not everyone is what we think they are

I think it requires some humility about our own judgment as well as a willingness to acknowledge, “I, you know, I made a mistake and I need to change my perspective.”

Toggle: Yeah. I think it’s important to also keep an open mind that people might not be trustworthy, ‘cause one thing we’ve seen is we’ll find out something bad about someone and then, like, all their friends say, “Oh, that can’t possibly be something they did ‘cause, you know, he’s my personal friend and I know him. He would never do something like that.”

Quetz: And they just, like, deny it without ever, like, exploring the possibility that it might be something they should be worried about.

Toggle: Right

Flehmen: I would also caution a little bit from the other side. If it’s something you’ve seen or experienced, obviously believe yourself first. But if it’s not something you’ve seen or experienced, ask. It may be a misinterpretation. There may be other things going on there. I have found that people are generally more trustworthy than not unless it comes to money, then all bets are off

Togo: Oh.

Toggle: Ouch.

Quetz: Start small. Give them $20.

Toggle: Cats, do you have any, anything that you, you know, decisions that you made that kind of gave you a life lesson?

Quetz: the most important decision I made, I guess, was to go ahead and reach out and meet people in real life Like, I could see another life where I was just, like, too nervous to ever have done that and just, like, never met any other zoos in real life and just kind of had to deal with all this stuff by myself.

So I think the, that, that was probably the most important thing I did is, not be so paranoid about what can happen. I think it’s a special problem for young people to be, like, really super worried that, like, someone’s gonna find out and it’s gonna ruin my life. But like, unless you create, like, concrete proof, like sending out pictures of yourself or something really dumb like that, like even if someone jumps on you and claims you’re a zoo, like what are they gonna do about it?

so I’m glad I overcame that fear.

Toggle: I feel like if you, if y- your character leads the way, right? You know, I, I think in this, in this world that we live in for a lot of young people, the mob is always a fear. the perceptions of people who can never truly know you because we live in a world where we are a brand. Like our, being is, is like something we’re getting the approval of like millions of people for some reason.

and a lot of young people are caught up in that kind of a thing,

Quetz: Yeah, if you’re making money that way especially, it’s a lot bigger danger for you and like things can spiral. Uh, yeah, I’ve never had to

deal with any of that stuff ‘cause I’ve never tried to maintain an online personality and like a front that I present for commercial purposes or anything like that. So yeah, it’s out of my realm of experience.

Toggle: Right. But then on, on the other hand, it’s– The thing is, like, if your character leads the way there, the people who matter who you are, and so when something like your, your sexuality comes out, it’s, it’s counterbalanced with the, the knowledge of your, your personality, your values, the things that you stand for.

and if you don’t, if you continue to have, like, some deniability where you haven’t, you know, posted a picture of yourself on, you know, there’s no concrete proof. There’s always, like, you know, a little bit of

Kyon: Plausible deniability.

Toggle: That’s the word I’m looking for, plausible deniability.

Quetz: Don’t fly the zoo pride flag

Toggle: like, don’t, don’t take a picture of you with the zoo pride plaque, I guess. I don’t know.

Gar: 25 years ago, people could share images of themself online, and it was very unlikely to be traced back to them. but that’s totally different now. if you make or share media, then you are sort of instantly findable

Toggle: I guess my point is, like, don’t worry too much– don’t worry so much about being outed that you create a mental health problem for yourself. You know what I mean? That, I guess that’s the, the bottom line there. Be a good person and people will know. The people who matter will know

Kyon: Good boy.

Toggle: Be a good boy.

Kyon: Good girl too

Toggle: Kyn, do you have any, any advice for people based on the experiences you’ve had?

Kyon: It’s like, you know, we put on masks all the time. So many masks these days. And, to understand that you are yourself and you are who you are and your attractions are what they are, and that’s okay. And even if you can’t ever share them at all for whatever reason, it’s still okay,

Toggle: Yeah. Self-esteem goes a long way. It’s a pretty important, it’s a pretty important thing. Even if you feel like you’re in a situation where you can’t share some aspect about you, try not to pathologize yourself,

Kyon: Yeah, yeah. keep, exposing yourself to people. You never know who you, what friends you’re gonna

make, you know?

Hey, come over here, I’ll expose myself to you.

Flehmen: Oh baby

Toggle: Oh my

a lot has happened in the past few years, and, and, when we talk about foundational, ethics and stuff like that. You know, you talked about things like the, like the Zeta principles and stuff that were way, way before us,

we have a lot that was built back then that we can still refer to and rely on, I think. And then of course, like, I’m pretty sure some of you have participated in research stuff, right?

Kyon: I think I’ve filled out a questionnaire or two, and been interviewed by a researcher or something, you know?

Toggle: Yeah are, there are a number of sex researchers who are working hand in hand with, members of the zoo community, both individually and through the, uh, web forums. and there’s a history of that going back to the mid-1990s with Hanne Miletski, and I bet some of this group filled out her original questionnaire in the ’90s.

Gar: but that’s something that, especially AQUA has encouraged, the improved quality of information and the participation and respect, of zoos within sociology research.

Toggle: Yeah. I’m really pleased with where the research is going right now and the kind of relationships that we’ve been able to make that, you know, Aqua and other people as well have, have facilitated. shout out a little bit to, Zooville for just being a big place where people go and find zoos, where researchers look there and go, “Oh, there’s so many people here.”

Flehmen: I’m a bit saddened by how modern research, though, is so limited by politics. Like, no one’s gonna give you permission to study the zoos if you’re gonna say anything positive about them. I, I guess it’s really been that way for a long time, but it seems much worse now that everything is political and everything is scrutinized for any bit of wokeness or whatever it is.

Toggle: Well, I think there is difficulty to get funding to research animal sexuality, but we have found that people are able to find ways to the topic in, in ways that research boards are willing to approve of in recent years, you know, we, we had, uh, Dr. Zidenberg, and, Dr.

Statena on a couple years ago, uh, who are continuing to do research. Um, and we talked about the, the kind of funding issues that they’ve had and, and, and the difficulties there. But, um, they’re still, they’re still kinda working with us and, and, we’re able to publish what I would say is not negative at the very least.

what we’re, what we’re looking for really is neutral. Neutral is good because, neutrality lends itself to, reliability and trust as opposed to having a bias in one way or another. so that’s, that’s been really cool recently.

I really appreciate you guys coming and, sharing your stories and your experiences today because, you know, this, this kind of, with any luck, becomes part of that legacy, right? Um, it’s something that, you know, people can learn from your experiences, and we also can continue to collect the knowledge of stuff that, is easy to get lost because it’s just not documented anywhere, you know? so I appreciate you guys coming and, and talking about this and, and sharing your experiences and, and your wisdom, to all of our fine listeners here as well. is there any l-last things that you want to leave people with,

Gar: time flies

Toggle: God does it. No time like the present, right?

Kyon: Use the day.

Togo: Yeah, live your life,

Kyon: Your life with dog, horse, met a Llama

zoo.

Flehmen: But voila. Ooh

Gar: it’s really surprising how quickly we become old, and, it’s really important to devote your years to things you’ll look back on positively.

Flehmen: learn from your animal companions.

Try to live in the present and plan for the future, but don’t worry about it

Kyon: Yep. If there’s no decision to be made, then go do something else.

Toggle: That’s Pet a, doggy. Pet a doggy. Take the h- take the horsies for walks. It’s good

Flehmen: and I’ve never met a zoo who was bad because they were zoo. They were just bad people who happened to be zoo.

Keep that to your heart as well

Gar: And most zoos are good people

Flehmen: Absolutely

Toggle: Well, thank you guys for coming. I appreciate you. and thank you, Gar, as well for, for helping me facilitate the conversation here.

I’ve really enjoyed talking with all you guys

Flehmen: Same here

Togo: Yeah. Thank you for having us

Toggle: We will be back with more Zooier Than Thou right after this.

”Tiger Paws in Otter Waters” (song)

zipwok I remember following you in the night

The moonlight in the ocean had begun to shine

Your paws in motion caused commotion

And blue was all around us

Then we freaked out over the lights

Shining straight from the water

Wanna come in? I said alright

Freaking out over water

Then we freaked out over the lights

Shining straight from the water

Wanna come in? I said alright

Freaking out over water

I remember following you in the night

The moonlight in the ocean had begun to shine

Your paws in motion caused commotion

And blue was all around us

Then we freaked out over the lights

Shining straight from the water

Wanna come in? I said alright

Freaking out over water

Then we freaked out over the lights

Shining straight from the water

Wanna come in? I said alright

Freaking out over water

Then we freaked out over the lights

Shining straight from the water

Wanna come in? I said alright

Freaking out over water

Then we freaked out over the lights

Shining straight from the water

Wanna come in? I said alright

Freaking out over water

I remember following you in the night

The moonlight in the ocean had begun to shine

Your paws in motion caused commotion

And blue was all around us

Ask Zooey

Zooey: Welcome back to Ask Zooey, the cross-species relationship advice program that’s proven again and again to be positively packed with interspecies thoughtfulness, bestialicious anatomical infatuation, and gay furries! We can’t get rid of them! Nor would we want to, of course. I’m your not-so-humble host who gives good scritches and rubs to good dogs who get closer when I show them my hand, Zooey.

Eggshell: And I’m your cohost in canine kissing crimes, canine cuddling comforts, and OF COURSE canine complimenting consonants, Eggshell. And can I just say this real live actual studio audience in the room with us is looking absolutely beautiful today.

Zooey: Too true, my ovine co-orator of the hour. I’ve NEVER seen a live studio audience like this before.

Eggshell: If you are a first time listener, dear audience, Ask Zooey is where zoos like you can write in with zooey questions, be they logistical, gooey, mechanical, slippery, social, slimy, romantic, cummy, or any other type of zooey question that you may conceive of.

Zooey: And we will answer as best as we can, with the help of our network of friends and colleagues ever engaged in interspecies romancing adventures.

Eggshell: How have your adventures been lately, Zooey?

Zooey: Hairy.

Eggshell: Gotta love it.

Zooey: Our question today comes to us from Rainy in Rhode Island. Rainy writes…

Eggshell: “Hello! There is something that I have been very curious about for quite some time now as someone that knows that they are a zoo but has not had the opportunity to really search for a non-human partner: how you started dating your partner, and what made you know that they were the right one for you (and you for them!).

I tried looking into this on Twitter and a bit on Telegram, but people don’t really like sharing about this, even with keeping it vague, and I fully understand why since this is even more private than usual and could be too revealing.

I am sincerely hoping to start looking in the near-ish future and so I want to learn from others with experience how to do things “right” so as to avoid making potential mistakes somehow. I just am unsure how people really started, and how long it took them to feel like they found the right being for them?”

Zooey: Well, Rainy, thank you for writing in! There’s a lot to be said for folks seeking advice regarding their current canine partners, but it’s just as much of a pleasure to tackle the topic of swimming in the dating pool itself. Talking about getting knotty is one thing, but too much talk tends to leave the loins stirred, in my experience at least, and talk even tends to tug on those romantic heartstrings left too long untugged, which can also leave a fella wanting.

Eggshell: It sounds to me, Rainy, like you’re in part looking for examples here, just, “literally how does anyone end up with a non-human romantic partner, no one will tell me their meet cute story, I just wanna know how it happened, how it ever even got off the ground.” And, yeah I hear that, that’s fair enough, to want to hear that kind of story, but encountering the barrier that not everyone is eager to share because it can be a bit personal and circumstantial to get into.

Zooey: Let’s earmark that “circumstantial” keyword for in just a moment.

Eggshell: Indeed. My own story is that there was a friend who I lived very close to who had a beautiful, charming, cunning, kinda really big dog. And, this friend was happy to let me take care of the dog as much as I wanted, which, turned out to be a lot. I’m talking going out on VERY long walks like every night, and just hanging out all together, and, yeah after a while it became very apparent this dog and I had become best friends with each other. There was no hurry to find out our feelings here. There was just, abundantly enough time to search our hearts and be around each other and, that was the answer, we had fallen completely in love.

And, there came a time when me and this friend, the human friend, were both moving to pretty vastly different parts of our nation, and the friend, even though it was not a light decision for him, said I had his blessing to take this dog with me if I wanted to, and I did.

So… that doesn’t really translate into ADVICE, though. It IS what happened, like, there you go, but it’s not really replicable, like, you wouldn’t have an easy time following these steps and getting the same results.

Zooey: Indeed. The way we see it, there are three primary ways that you and a non-human may enter into one another’s lives: adopting, buying, and random circumstance.

Sure, we like to imagine that the easy answer is to prepare your home for a non-human friend to stay at for a trial period to test the waters. But firstly, that’s a tall order for someone with limitations on their living arrangements or budget, which I’m assuming to be the case. Not everyone’s living room can accommodate a stallion, unless said stallion isn’t all too particular about personal space. And with what those fellows are packing, that’s sadly a rare occurrence. Secondly, once you’ve taken an animal into your home, it’s hard to shake the feeling that a serious commitment exists between the two of you. And of course, it is important to keep in mind that adopting your lover, in the legal sense, does not automatically ensure compatibility. This is especially true if you choose to adopt from a shelter rather than shop at a breeder, as many of these animals have quirks and backgrounds that do not fully reveal themselves until they’re already living in your home.

Of course, when it comes to adopting or buying, we on Zooier than Thou aspire to the mantra: Adopt, don’t shop. We have the saying framed in our breakroom, right above the coffee maker. It’s not practical for everyone, but it’s a chance to make an animal’s life so much better, and we give it a ringing endorsement!

Eggshell: Indeed. I would not be mad at someone for buying an animal, I think you’re looking at a serious long-term commitment and you are empowered to make big decisions here, and maybe buying is the decision that makes sense. But, adoption is probably nicer feeling maybe, if nothing else.

Zooey: Indeed. Now, when you’re bringing an animal into your life in the more formalized ways, be it adopting from a shelter or responding to personals about unexpected litters with free shepskies to give away, it’s likely that you won’t have much “get to know you” time with your companion-to-possibly-be. But there are some rules of thumb, or rules of dewclaw if you prefer, that may be wise to abide by.

Eggshell: This has been touched on before, Season 4 Episode 10 comes to mind, A New Home for the Holidays. Basically the theory here is that when looking for an animal companion, there are some things you should be able to get a rough idea of just based on breed or asking certain questions. Stuff like, am I good with unleashing a tornado aka husky into my life, or is the much slower paced bulldog life more for me? It’s about making sure that you and your prospective partner are likely matches on key aspects of lifestyle: active vs sedentary, temperament, physical size compatibility if you are hoping to tie the knot or insert other appropriate euphemism here. None of that is a guarantee about anything. Like. At all. But, it’s kind of about taking good odds of a good fit and hoping it works out, instead of taking completely random odds and hoping it works out.

It is all very weird, just, existentially. It doesn’t really correlate in very many ways with how a “how to date humans” guide would look. I am told that when you’re getting to know a human with romance on your mind, you can do a lot of exploration before deciding to move in together, see if you’re compatible on dates, compatible while hanging out, and compatible in the bedroom as well, and if it doesn’t work out, you can walk away. But with animals, we’re likely looking at them becoming your like, assigned, permanent responsibility, and that may have to happen with very little time of actually getting to know each other depending on how you do it.

Zooey: That said, when it comes to compatibility, just because Rover isn’t quite so accurate with his lipstick, for example, that’s no reason to return a pup to the kennel. This ties in wonderfully with Blushing Bottom’s plight from our last episode, actually; there is a wealth of compassion to be found in an animal partner outside of mere sex, and it would do you both a disservice to deny an animal a chance at a happy life just because they aren’t putting out. Though, of course, life is tricky and full of nuance, and sometimes it’s not entirely possible to give an animal lover the life they deserve, whether your relationship is sexually and romantically satisfying or not. If that’s the case, it’s worthwhile to seek out like-minded individuals who have that capacity to care for an animal instead of going straight back to the kennel or similar establishment. But a new home may be difficult to find. That’s why it’s important to make sure it’s within your means to provide for a companion, because as my Eggcelent cohost pointed out, getting into a relationship with an animal can be almost too easy, but getting out of a relationship can be nearly impossible – there are only so many homes, and far too many animals who need them. Remember, if it’s an option, Adopt, don’t Shop!

Bringing an animal into your life can feel like a major life commitment that you have to make in a mere split decision.

Eggshell: It might, in fact, be exactly that.

Zooey: But such is the nature of almost all animal-human partnerships, and in spite of the less-than-ideal circumstances, both lives can be enriched by the relationship that forms out of it.

Eggshell: Do your best, Rainy. 🤙 Meeting a dog is a bit like traveling to Narnia, in that it doesn’t necessarily ever have to happen the same way twice. Dogs may enter into our lives sought or unsought, slowly or suddenly, but it is truly a blessing that we share this Earth with them.

Zooey: Which talking animal from Narnia is the most fuckable?

Eggshell: Traditional wisdom says Aslan but I would like to feel Reepicheep’s whiskers in places I ain’t never felt whiskers before.

Zooey: Fantastic. That’s all the time we have today, dear listeners. Thanks so much for tuning in! We look forward to answering all your zooey relationship questions next episode! Keep those submissions coming!

Eggshell: We’ll see you next time on Ask Zooey! Same zoo time, same zoo channel!

Outro

Gar: Thanks, friends, for listening to Zooier Than Thou!

Toggle: Our next episode is on July 29th, and it’s zoo pride month!

Gar: It’s bound to be full of silliness, so don’t miss it!

Toggle: You can subscribe to the podcast via our zooey RSS feed. Just point your favorite podcast client at rss.zoo.wtf. You can also check out our extensive bonus content at bonus.zoo.wtf. If you wanna show your support financially, head on over to donate.zoo.wtf. Find us on BlueSky at, you guessed it, @zoo.wtf

Gar: Our podcast website hasn’t changed, and you can find a form that enables anonymous submissions to the podcast. You can also simply email us at [email protected].

Toggle: Share this podcast with someone who’s getting their first gray hairs!

Gar: I’m Gar, and I’ll be watching from the corner of the barn.

Toggle: And I’m Toggle, and they’re putting me back in cryosleep after this! And you’ve almost finished listening to Zooier Than Thou. Stay defiant, fellow zoos. We’ll see you next time you feel like howling at the moon.

Both: Awoo!