Revisiting Homelessness

Please note that this transcript is automatically generated and contains many inaccuracies

Disclaimer

Announcer: The Zooier Than Thou podcast contains adult concepts and language and may not be suitable for tender, young, impressionable human ears. So if you’re too young to know better and also too young to care, come back when you’re old enough to know better but too young to care, too young to know better but old enough to care, or better yet, old enough to know better and also old enough to care.

Theme Song

Kynophile: Hey, what can I say?

You’ve got me howlin’ at the moon!

Whoa, don’t you know that love is wild when you’re a zoo?

We’re Zooier Than Thou!

Oh yeah!

Intro

Toggle: Greetings fellow zoos, and welcome to another Resolute episode of Zooier Than Thou. I’m Toggle and I’m really tired of playing the same avatars in VR Chat,

Eve: And I’m Eve, and I really like this snake from Zootopia too.

Toggle: and we’ll be your hosts for this evening. Wow. All right. It’s a new year. I cannot believe it. I’m very excited and with New Years. Comes New Year’s resolutions. You got any Eve

Eve: I’d have to say that my New Year’s resolution is to just make as much change as possible, more so than I’ve done in the past.

Toggle: right now? People are gonna find out later on that making change is kind of your whole occupation, right?

Eve: Absolutely.

Toggle: Fantastic. I think for me, I’m taking the new year to be new beginnings from start to finish, top to bottom. I’m starting over, starting fresh, new outlooks, new perspectives on life. I was talking to my therapist and we decided that’s what we need to do this year, so that’s what we’re gonna do

Brand new year.

Eve: How exciting.

Toggle: Yeah, I’m excited. Speaking of being excited, you mentioned Zootopia two, holy crap, what an awesome movie.

Eve: it was so fantastic. I have a new favorite character, uh, Bert.

Toggle: Oh yeah.

Yes, he’s very charismatic I just thought like the interplay between Nick and Judy was so good. I watched I’m going to see it again tonight, actually, like right after we’re done. I’m gonna go see that movie again. It’s so good. I’m so happy that it was good. ‘cause you know how Disney sequels are

very excited.

Eve: I will say I did quite enjoy how they brought together Nick and Judy’s personalities and really made them shine together.

Toggle: Yeah, they really did. the interplay between those two characters was so good. if you somehow in January haven’t seen this movie, it. It might still be in the box office because it did really fucking well. If you haven’t seen it, treat yourself, it’s pretty good. But first, we’re gonna go ahead and treat you to some emails.

Eve: First up, we have Ren Bird. They’re writing in today about how they found the podcast.

they say, just listen to Medium Mastery 2024. I came here from Taboo Science’s episode. More importantly, I came to Taboo from Scott, from Tom Scott’s lateral with Ashley Hammer, Adam Savage, and Sam Reich. All of this took roughly two hours, so your reach is growing and is in good hands. Anyway, thought you would like to know this.

This has allowed me to explore my own zoo encounters, the usual assertive slash playful neighborhood dog finishing on me. Thank you for your hard work on all lgbtq plus community, and in my opinion, as a cis hat, this is in the q slash kink side, just for some insight into my perspective.

Toggle: Right on. That’s super exciting to hear. First of all. Ashley Hamer was fantastic. as people probably know, huge fan of San Rech, big fan of college humor in general, so really exciting to hear that, all of those people were talking about the show, crazy actually.

to hear that. So thanks for listening and finding us and um, yeah, I, we would probably agree here that, uh, zoo stuff is, is on the queer side of things. I don’t know if we typically address it as a kink, but certainly as something that’s queer.

Eve: Absolutely, it is definitely a type of relationship. That are super, super special and I’m very happy to hear that you were able to come into yourself a little bit.

Toggle: Yeah, that’s kind of cool. A zoo finding us through something. So usually, we hear from people who have found us through some kind of hate podcast, so it’s really cool to hear, a zoo happening upon the show, through like a, a nice podcast. A good podcast, one that’s actually worth watching or listening to.

Eve: All right.

Re bird, thank you for writing in. Hope to hear from you again sometime.

Toggle: Absolutely. Our next email is from Big Dog Bigga Daga. There’s two Gs in each of those words. Big dog is feeling skittish and they write. Hey there, zoo crew. I wanted to ask about how you began feeling comfortable in zoo spaces. I still feel weird pretty quickly every time I try to join zoo groups, even if they’re completely safe for work and I end up dipping out and maybe coming back later and inevitably doing the same thing again.

I’m not exactly sure why I do this. It’s not like I’m not being safe or that I’m even uncomfortable with the people in the group. Most people I care about in my personal life have either been told directly or it’s so obvious that they know and just don’t really care that I don’t bother bringing it up with them.

So it’s not like I’d be losing much in the off chance. I get, quote, found out. I don’t even watch much porn related to zoo things unless we’re counting furry art and I’m not sexually active in regards to any animals. So it’s not like any laws are being broken. I just have a weird insecurity and I was wondering if you have any tips of how to further accept myself as a member of the community and allowing myself to make zoo friends.

Thanks for reading if you do. I appreciate whatever insight you have on this and have a lovely day. I.

Eve: Wow. yeah, I have some similar experience in that regard. nowadays, of course I have a pretty close knit group of zoo friends, but, back in the day. I would join in on forums and not really be super active. I’d take a look here or therian then back out, leave them alone for a while. but I was lucky enough to just develop one really good close friendship with a local zoo friend of mine.

And, uh, nowadays the friendship is blossomed into multiple more friendships. as far as. Allowing yourself to be a little bit more comfortable with yourself or comfortable with joining into groups. It’s a lot of trial and error. I know that I’ve had a lot of missteps in trying to, enter myself into a space or enter into a space where, Through so many different ideas and personalities and thoughts, but I just don’t, I let myself be open to new experiences and just let myself sit in it for a while.

Toggle: Absolutely. I think there’s a lot to be said for finding the right people, but finding the right people takes a little bit of vulnerability. and maybe it’s allowing yourself to be uncomfortable for just a little bit so that you can find the comfort in that.

Eve: Absolutely.

Toggle: And thank you for writing in Bigg-guh-guh Dog-guh-guh, we appreciate you, reaching out. that’s a pretty,great question for a lot of people who are probably feeling a lot the same way.

Eve: Our next one is from Lovely Laura Kes. They write in today to discuss a lover that I likely cannot see. Hello Zoo TT crew. I wanted to write in about the situation I have going on.

My human partner, who knows, I’m a zoo and I were homeless earlier this year, and we ended up staying with a friend for a while. Who also knows I’m a zoo. This friend has many birds living with them, including one rescued yellow naed. Amazon Parrot, who I’ll call Lira was originally in the home of an older woman who taught her many different phrases and even songs. I won’t get too into the details of her past. Aside from that, just for privacy reasons, unfortunately, Lira one day decided that she no longer liked my friend, and instead wanted their housemates attention. I’ll call him Richard, my friend. Seeing how much Lira liked Richard allowed him to take care of her.

Richard consistently neglected her and all of the care fell back onto my friend until I was staying there. Lira and I almost immediately connected. She loved to sit on my shoulder and just sit with me. She loved to preen me. I ended up being able to get her to open up and say a few phrases she hasn’t said in years, and on multiple occasions she tried to initiate certain activities with me.

I never reciprocated these despite my love for her, as I knew I was only staying there temporarily. And that pair bonding for parents in particular can be extremely detrimental for their health as we humans can’t provide them with what they need. Unfortunately, Richard ended up kicking my partner and I out despite my friend trying to advocate for us.

We were still waiting to hear back from multiple apartments we had applied to. And after he ended up killing my friend’s other birds due to his negligence, Lyra ended up back in my friend’s care. I’m still worried sick though, as I haven’t seen Lyra in months I wish that I could completely ensure that she is okay and well taken care of.

I know my friend takes great care of their flock, but I’m still worried. I’ve offered to bird sit multiple times, and I guess I’m just wondering if you guys have any advice or suggestions as for what to do. Do you think it’d be okay for me to come over on occasion both to hang out with my friend and see Lira, or do you think I should just try to move on?

Any advice helps, and thank you all for reading this.

Toggle: Wow. That’s A really vulnerable situation there in like several different ways, really. unfortunate that Richard could not take care of these animals and actually ended up killing some of them. That’s horrifying. But it sounds like you’re still friends with the person who actually, is in possession of the bird.

That’s what it sounds like. Is that what you read?

Eve: I believe so. That’s what it sounds like to me.

Toggle: So it, it’s interesting to me that you’re in a situation where you feel like you may no longer ever see her, so maybe there’s a piece of this that is missing. ‘cause it sounds like you’re local. It sounds like maybe the friendship is strained by you staying there or something like that. Maybe that’s where the reluctance here is, but assuming I’m not missing anything completely, I don’t see why you can’t go hang out with your friend. Unless there was some bad blood therian, if there was some bad blood, you probably need to clear it up, and just be like, Hey, we had whatever falling out we had, but I still care about you and I also actually wanna know how your bird is doing.

I don’t think it’s weird to ask how someone’s doing, especially in the wake of several birds dying,

Eve: So that is absolutely a difficult situation and I’m happy to hear, just to start that you’re in a better living situation. That being said, it does sound like the bird is currently with someone that I don’t believe you’re on bad terms with.

Toggle: I have a question about this actually. Is Richard still living in this person’s house? Because I don’t know if I had birds and entrusted them to the other person and they killed them, that I necessarily want them living in my house anymore. But maybe that’s where the, uh,tension is coming in?

Eve: I would absolutely agree to say though, that there’s nothing wrong with checking in, just saying, Hey, I hope you’re doing okay, to this other person in this situation, asking about the birds and inquiring if you can. I wouldn’t say that there’s any harm at least in doing that. And, uh, if that’s something that you want to do, I would say go for it.

Toggle: I think maybe with zoos, sometimes we feel like because our attraction or bond with animals can be so strong that we come off really strong. And so it’s weird that we’re interested in birds or something like that. But I think that. Normal people also bond with animals in ways that are platonic and just normal.

And I don’t know that it’s a problem to say, you know, I I kind of felt like I bonded with Lira and I am worried about her. Or even I just wanna know that she’s doing okay. Or I wanted to check in on her, however you wanna phrase it. I don’t think that’s weird.

Eve: I would agree. I think it gets weird if you’re like, I have to see her.

Toggle: you have to let me see your bird, but that’s not what you’re doing right.

Eve: Yeah, if it’s overtaking your day to day and it’s becoming an unhealthy situation for you, it might be good to back off a bit. But if it’s a healthy just to check in, you want to see how this friend of yours is doing, how Lira is doing, potentially the other birds, that’s perfectly fine.

Toggle: Yeah. I, you know, it’s funny you gave so much detail, and yet I feel like after trying to answer the question, there’s some stuff that we’re missing, that makes it a little hard to know the full context. But in general, checking in with your friend, who your solo friend with and checking in on her bird doesn’t sound like a problem to me.

Eve: Alright. Thank you for writing in. Lovely Laura Kes. I hope that you can figure out the situation.

Toggle: Yeah. Up next is Vix, who has a story submission and is seeking advice. Vix writes, hello. So the now, first off, I love your podcast. It’s helped me feel so much better about my identity and listen alone in this world, words cannot express how much I appreciate all of you. Now, I wanted to share something with you that I originally wrote out as a vent in a zoo server. After sitting with it for a while, I felt it might be worth submitting it here since it connects to your podcast and to have something I’ve been struggling with. It connects to your podcast and to something I’ve been struggling with. I have my Now X it is complicated. Partner about four years ago, because we connected over shared interest, both being zoos among things. From the start, I was under the complete impression that she was a zoophile too. She told me she was, and we even had long in-depth conversations about one day adding a third, a canine partner to our relationship.

That foundation of honesty and shared identity made me feel safe trusting her. Earlier this year though, something happened that really shook me. I had left my phone out around her without a second thought since I felt like I had nothing to hide at the time. I was halfway through an episode of Zooier than now, and the podcast was open on my screen.

I did not realize she had seen it, nor did I really care if she did until later that night when she suddenly confronted me. She asked if she needed to be worried or if she should call the local animal shelters to warn them about me. I have never felt so embarrassed, shamed, and crushed all at once, especially by someone I thought not only understood me, but shared this part of me.

In the moment. I panicked, I denied it and gave a flimsy excuse Saying I had only stumbled across the podcast and was curious what it was. She laughed with relief, then immediately started talking down about zoos before leaving the room. This happened two or three months ago, but it has not left my mind. She still lives with me, and ever since that night, I have felt myself shutting down, rebuilding walls, avoiding her, and even choosing to sleep on the couch for the past couple of months, just to keep some distance. So my question is. How can someone like me avoid situations like this in the future and protect myself from being caught off guard in such a painful way about my identity and attraction?

Thank you for listening, VIX.

Eve: Wow, that is an incredibly difficult situation to go through. I’m very sorry to hear that situation happened with you and it is admittedly very confusing. Um.

That is a very difficult situation

Toggle: Yeah, it is really confusing, I would say your question is how can someone like me avoid situations like this in the future? There’s a couple of reasons why I’m gonna say you can’t. Number one is that there was the assumption that both of you were like, on mutual terms and then something changed and things changed for people sometimes, like things get complicated, especially with an identity like zoophilia.

Someone might be exploring it and then later have shame about it. and then just go through these fluxes in their perceived identity of themselves. and that may be what happened to your partner where at the time when you first met four years ago, they identified as Azua file and that was fine between the T of V, but something in between now and then happened where maybe. her feelings on the matter changed. For instance, maybe she saw something that was very traumatizing or changed the way she felt about the identity of being a zoo Oph file. And she says, no, that’s not me. And then suddenly, without talking to you about it, that changed. but that’s number one. Something changed. And number two. Is that part of having a relationship with people is being vulnerable and being vulnerable is a really important way to strengthen bonds with people. But it means that you’re allowing them to have the ability to hurt you. And I think you have to have that in a relationship. I don’t think you can be intimate with someone and not have. Vulnerability, the ability to be hurt. obviously in this situation, your trust was broken and that hurts. But trust is established through shared vulnerability you can’t have strong relationships without that.

That’s how I feel.

Eve: I would also say that communication is a very, very. Important part of this, it was not communicated to you prior or at any point that your partner had changed their feelings or wasn’t sure. especially with a, you know, identity such as zoophilia or zoophile, it is very difficult, especially when you’re new to it.

Toggle: To kind of settle into that and like accept it. but it is kind of a breach of trust when someone just kind of randomly switches like that. I guess I should allow for the possibility that you thought something was the case and then it wasn’t.

Eve:

Toggle: but to me it sounded like you had really good communication or you felt like you did anyway. So I don’t know.

Eve: And another part of that. and I know especially in that moment, it could have been very hard to, but, asking, Hey, we talked about this, allowing yourself to be open as well. it is exceptionally hard, during kind of a full 180. have you talked since, would be my next question about it. as far as how you can avoid situations like this in the future, what, Taal said, vulnerability is being. Open being vulnerable. and that’s a two-way street. it seems like something closed off within your partner. Something happened like Taal said,or they saw or heard something from someone or some other source and, something shifted and they didn’t communicate that to you.

Which is an incredibly, incredibly difficult situation. but yeah, you can’t, when you’re in a relationship like this, you have to be willing to,take the wins alongside the losses and the confusion, the heartache, as well as the good times.

Toggle: Yeah, I think at this point you’re already starting to close off here. so your relationship is in jeopardy. and this is, I, this was written in not this month, so I don’t know how things have evolved since then. Perhaps you’re not even in this relationship anymore, but if you are. This is one of those things where you’re gonna have to eventually have that conversation and be like, look,I have been feeling more distant ever since this happened, and in order for us to move past this, I need to be vulnerable again.

and if you can’t be vulnerable, that relationship’s done. and.

Eve: Maybe it’s gonna take a little bit of time to build back trust, but if other parts of your relationship are going well, it might be worth taking the time to build back that trust, and open up that conversation again. I would agree

it is scary that they were like, I’m gonna call the local animal shelter or something. But o.

Toggle: That’s ugly. It’s nasty. I would weigh whether or not that actually is gonna be a problem for you because you haven’t done anything illegal. They can’t send someone after you. At best they can say you can’t adopt a dog here, or, and they may talk to other shelters.

That’s like the worst that they can do. I don’t know if you’re interested in adopting a dog from a shelter? Yeah, we definitely recommend it, because those dogs need homes. But there’s a lot to weigh here, and you have to decide whether the relationship’s worth saving or whether it’s time to pack it up.

That’s where you’re at right now. But bottom line, I think you did what you needed to do normally to. Prevent this and that is be open with communication. Something changed. That’s very hard to avoid. But what you cannot do is build walls forever and hold everyone out. ‘ cause then you won’t have a relationship with people. And that’s way worse of a situation than getting hurt and having to deal with those wounds.

It is better to get hurt. That’s how I feel. So thank you so much for being vulnerable with us. Fix, that’s just a really difficult situation. There’s a lot of things to weigh, but hopefully our insight was helpful.

Eve: Next is where Pup does a wonder who’s discussing season six, multiple episodes. Question mark. Hey there, zoo. I am a pup who is also a zoo. I love the podcast and I have listened to all episodes. To date, shout out to 14 Werewolves and Panu, the Doggy King. Unless I miss something, there hasn’t been coverage of zoo slash put play population interactions.

I’m not trying to harp on this podcast addressing all possible zoo plus other group intersectionality. I’d nevertheless be interested in knowing your experience in discussing zoo topics or disclosure with any putt play friends you have encountered. This is because while the equivalent discussions I’ve had with my furry friends very similarly to the experiences discussed on the podcast previously by hosts, contributors, and researchers, my discussions of zoo topics with my pup friends have been met with unilateral rejection, condemnation, and unfriending, usually claiming zeuss give pups a bad look.

Ironically, they’re totally down with anthro art and animal inspired sex toys, but they claim zoos are animal abusers nonetheless. Has anyone else had this experience?

Toggle: Thank you for writing in where Pup does a wonder, this phrase somehow like this is different from your furry friends, where they say, uh, zoos give pups a bad look. I gotta say that’s the most familiar thing I’ve ever heard. Zoos give furries a bad look. Zoos give pups a bad look. Yes, I’ve heard both of those things, but also I’ve heard the opposite. what’s your experience? you, have some experience with the pop play community, right?

Eve: yes. I actually am a pup myself, and I have a couple of friends who are zoos as well as pups. it’s definitely not commonplace. it’s as commonplace probably within the furry fandom as it is within the PUP community. I don’t have the statistics on that, but I don’t know.

Seems fair. I would say, as far as being a pup myself as well as a zoo,you’ll find ever so occasionally another pup who is also a zoo. I’d like to say that I, completely see you and feel you. that is a very difficult experience once again. To go through with losing friends, in your communities, uh, because of your curiosity about zoos, about zoophilia, about the intersectionality of zoos and pups.

Toggle: but yeah, no, there’s any kind of common denominator with,zoos and X group. I think my experience really has been that like the furry zoo pup. Venn diagram absolutely has a sinner with all three of those things in it. that’s what I’ve experienced. obviously I am not in the BDSM community where pup play is really has its origins. but I will say many of the pups that I have met are zoo friendly or are zoos themselves.

in the same way that it is the truth for furries. And in the same way, there is narrative resistance pops, just like furries get that same sort of, bestiality undertone from parts of society that want to, persecute them. So there is a narrative resistance to. Zoophilia where I’m a pup, I have to have this kind of performative stance against it.

because, I have to prove I’m one of the good ones, so to speak.

Eve: Lest I catch the ire of

Toggle: right,

Eve: else.

Toggle: yeah. I have to prove that, this is okay or something, whatever the, whatever causes the narrative resistance. It’s Therian. It’s very similar to Furry. we have absolutely thought about doing this topic.

so if you’re interested in participating, feel free to let us know. Happy to do a pop play episode. there is not a lot of data about the intersectionality, but my personal experience is that it exists, and that you are absolutely not alone. After all. Eve here is also a pup.

Eve: Oh.

Well, thank you so much for writing in where Pup does a wonder and we hope to hear back from you soon.

Toggle: Yeah. Alright, our last email is from Aria who writes in about their boyfriend finding out they’re a zoo. Aria writes, Hey, I was the girl y’all interviewed in the Facing Homelessness episode and luckily I’ve been broken up and moved out of those partners house for damn near two years now and currently have a new boyfriend whose one year anniversary is coming up next month, and he recently discovered I’m a zoo and is totally accepting.

he even felt bad that I felt the need to hide it for so long and I couldn’t be happier. Yeah. I love to have that come full circle to have the Facing Homelessness episode. for those of you who may not remember, and also for Eve, that episode, we had a lot of interviews with other zoos who were worried about how being. Exposed as a zoo could lead to them losing their home situations. And in this case, this person got out of the bad situation and came full circle to be in a, a situation with someone who accepts them as a zoo. So that’s super awesome to hear.

Eve: That is super, super exciting. Um, I’m. So happy for you. It’s always lovely to have some good news. I have a personal understanding myself of the fear of homelessness and, my situation is vastly improved. We’ll get into more of that later though. but I am super, super happy for you, super excited.

And I know that the rest of us here at Zoo Crew, are super excited and happy to hear that from and for you.

Toggle: Absolutely Aria, thank you for giving us the update. We are so stoked to hear it. And this episode is actually a follow-up to the episode Aria was interviewed in, in that episode a. After doing it. As I was putting it together, I found that there was something that we missed and I knew we needed to touch on this episode again, and Aria is bringing a lot of experience to that conversation.

So when we come back after the sponsors, I will be interviewing our special guest and she’s gonna help provide some insights in for those who might be facing homelessness.

Eve: We’ll be back shortly with more Zooier Than Thou.

Sponsors

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And by listeners like you! To help support Zooier Than Thou, trot on over to donate.zoo.wtf so we can finally afford Toggle’s anti insanity medication!

Topic - Revisiting Homelessness

Toggle: Welcome back. Fellow Zoos. As I mentioned before, we did our little sponsor break. the last time we addressed homelessness on our show. As we wrapped up, I went to find resources to add to our show notes, and I found a lot of links were actually broken, and I realized there was a little bit more that we needed to do in order to give this topic a little justice.

Fast forward a little while later, and I met my good friend here. Eve. Eve, would you like to introduce yourself?

Eve: Absolutely. It’s lovely to be here and thank you for having me on the show.

Toggle: Of course.

Eve: So my name is Eve. I’ve been working in homelessness advocacy for, uh, just about two years now. I have lived experience with being homeless and I’m also a zoo.

Toggle: So perfect for our show and to help us address this problem. so we’re gonna talk a little bit about what resources traditionally exist and how you might be able to find them. We’re gonna talk a little bit about what’s happening now, which could affect your ability to find those resources.

and we’re gonna talk about a little bit about what we might be able to do about it. so by chance I met Eve and we started talking about their advocacy work and started planning to do an episode about it. We’ve been working on this for a long time, and a lot of stuff has shifted over that time, since we started working on it. But eve has agreed to share her expertise as both someone who’s has tried to find these resources herself, and as someone who advocates for other homeless people. And for those of you who might be thinking, why does this even matter? Well, zoos are, as a queer group, at a higher risk of homelessness than the general population, particularly younger zoos who have not yet had a chance to establish their own independent living situation.

And maybe relying on parents who, if they found out that could be a problem, or other roommates or other social and economic situations that could put them in, a dire situation. So let’s start with the basic question. What resources exist for people who are in need of homeless assistance?

Eve: To preface, there’s a wide variety of actual different kinds of housing assistance as well. There is a low net number of agencies and resources, though. What I can tell you is that transitional housing, one of the most common here in the United States. rapid rehousing or permanent supportive housing, which is a housing first method.

there are wraparound exclusive services, drop in centers, food banks, health services, shared housing models, rental assistance in general, case management, usually alongside housing services.

Coordinated entry and general outreach events.

Toggle: Alright. So that’s a lot of things that I think, they’re jargony. Like

Eve: what do some of these things actually mean? So let’s start with transitional housing. what exactly is that?

So transitional housing is a. Structured temporary step between homelessness and permanent housing. it provides supportive services like case management, life skills, training and counseling to help vulnerable people, families, individuals, DV survivors, stabilize and gain independence within a set timeframe.

It’s more private and service intensive than emergency shelters, focusing on addressing root causes of homelessness to build skills for long-term housing stability.

Toggle: Okay. So that’s also not just for people who are homeless in a traditional sense, but also domestic violence, things like that, where people have been displaced from their homes and need to figure out where to go from here.

Eve: Absolutely. Um.

Toggle: So how does that differ from like rapid rehousing and the, uh, permanent supportive housing?

Eve: So transitional housing can often be high barrier. rapid rehousing is essentially low barrier hou a housing first approach. Often a lot of transitional housing or, other types of housing will require you to be drug free, little to no criminal record. have specific hours that you can pop in and out.

Whereas, rapid rehousing is a more, put you into a, a house, get you those wraparound services that you need, such as, therapy, medical assistance, HRT if need be. To summarize, transitional housing is often a little bit more high barrier with a lot more requirements, whereas Housing First is an approach that puts people into stable housing to help guide them, outta some of the other issues that they’re facing so they can build up money savings and, continuously start paying more and more on the apartment or housing so that they can have financial and housing security

All right, so actually wrapping rehousing is. obviously these are quantifying in a different way, but that’s a little bit better than just transitional. It seems like transitional is like oh, bureaucratic. How do I say? So I would certainly say that transitional housing is a little more Socratic. Yeah, that would summarize it, just Yes, it is.

Toggle: That’s good

Eve: certainly is. Yeah.

Toggle: yeah, so I guess housing first seems a little bit nicer. and of course wraparound services is like, so that’s if,I need something, so it’s not just housing, but also I need, a job like help building skills for a job or like some other social assistance. When you say wraparound, it’s like comprehensive.

Eve: yeah. wraparound services are a more comprehensive. Pallet of options and resources that are available, typically in rapid rehousing. Now, that’s not to say that, transitional housing can’t offer the wraparound services. It’s just more common within Rapid. basically, as far as myself, I have been through rapid rehousing.

specific services that I have received due to being in the wraparound services program, uh, would be food deliveries, would be access to, therapy, a lot of payment assistance for medical related things. not that I at that time had needed to access. Much more than therianthropy and the food, but assistance, filling out for applications for benefits, assistance with job hunting, assistance with resume building.

So yeah, when I say wraparound services, it’s it’s like getting a big hug, worth up full of stuff, full of resources,

Toggle: I love that. Alright, so going down your list that you mentioned, what are drop-in centers?

Eve: Typically a drop-in center is somewhere that individuals or families who are in need of services or who are going through the services provided by the centers, can go interact with other participants of these projects. Meet up with case management, typically find hot meals or food pantries there.

in some occasions, clothing donation, uh, is available at these centers. It’s basically a safe space away from your home. it’s a third place, but it’s also the place where you go to receive. the, some of the extra assistance in person that you need. you can socialize, you can work on specific tasks that you need to do there.

it’s great. Uh, they can often be good for getting out, getting quick resources, staying for longer times depending on the actual drop-in center. so they vary depending on where you’re at or which one you’re going through. But typically, yeah, just what I described.

Toggle: Oh, I would’ve never expected that to be what drop-in centers are. That’s really interesting. there’s also something you mentioned, which was the shared housing model I glean that has to do with sharing housing with someone else.

Eve: Typically the shared housing model is a model where two or more individuals or families, depending on what the interest, boundaries and willingness to live with specific different kinds of other people.

Think of it as a roommate matching service. this can be individuals, this can be families and in individuals or families and families. typically being matched up by a case manager who will go over. Different, roommate agreements, help assist them search for housing.

but this is a model that depending on the agency works slightly different. In certain cases, shared. Housing can entail having portions of the rent paid for by the advocacy that you’re going through. Or depending on your situation financially, you would cover the entire cost.

basically provides an opportunity to find a roommate or roommates who can help you share the cost of living in a house.

Toggle: Okay, that makes sense. And I think the last one that I wasn’t quite sure about was coordinated entry.

Eve: Coordinated entry is basically the method of how individuals are brought into the different advocacies. usually there will be, navigators, locally for me. The ones I interact with the most are youth navigators. so they will be almost, um.First or second line of contact for youth who will gauge the needs of youth who are going through homelessness. and then at times provide services until they can enter these individuals or families into a specific advocacy , generally the youth or general navigators will exit them into that program. So that is part of how coordinated entry works. That is not the entire description, but that is as good of a breakdown as I can give at the moment,

Toggle: So basically a coordinated entry is the process to get into these things where there’s someone who is basically trying to figure out what you need and get you the assistance you need.

Eve: right? Because with there being multiple different kinds of housing assistance, multiple different niches of assistance within that, they want to match you or help you get matched into the program that is the best fit for you, for your family et cetera.

Toggle: Okay. That makes a lot of sense. So when I went to try and find this information for youth specifically,our, homelessness episode previously dealt a lot with youth being 18 to 25. For anyone who’s listening who doesn’t know what youth means in this context,specifically for queer youth 18 to 25, I went to find resources and A lot of the resources that I found online were broken links or outdated information. So why are all those resources outdated online?

Eve: Yeah, it’s a very unfortunate circumstance, typically in relation to underfunding or funding cuts leading to efforts spent outside of online resources. as well, we have to remember that not all unhoused individuals will have consistent access to technology, so typically it isn’t as prioritized.

as well. Unfortunately, outdated forms of media such as pamphlets, printed media, are still often a main point of contact. Occasionally, there will be information in inaccessible social media accounts, uh, that being, that they’re hard to get to, you may not know exactly what this place is called. Um, and then once again, not every unhoused individual has access to consistent technology, so it leads to a lot of information that is on social media, like your Instagram, X, Facebook, Not being super publicly available or accessible, being the key point, to a lot of unhoused individuals.

Toggle: That makes a lot of sense, but is also really inconvenient.

Eve: extremely inconvenient.

Toggle: so just as a case example, how did you find the resources that you found when you needed them?

Eve: I didn’t really find very many resources until well into my early adulthood.

a lot of it came through word of mouth, a lot of failed online searches. but one of my close friends recommended to me my current advocacy that I have housing through. typically it was word of mouth. And even though I got access to my current living situation through Rapid, which is short, just short for rapid rehousing, and case management, I still knew very, very little.

Even though I got access to my current living situation through rapid rehousing and case management, I still knew excessively little at that point being even a month in to a stable living situation, I could no longer be referred to as many housing or assistance agencies.

because of that.

Toggle: because you had been put into rapid rehousing. Had been in a house for a month, a bunch of stuff got closed for you that you didn’t even know existed beforehand.

Eve: I only found out about quite a few of the other advocacies or resources available to me once I started my current job. and I was really only able to grab a scope of what we actually had locally due to, resource lists that we had printed out or typed up on different drives.

being in the, YHSI grant system, which is the Youth Homelessness System Improvement grant, a participant in one of the projects closed me off from some of the other ones. because you can’t really double dip.

Toggle: So you didn’t know what was available until you actually became a youth homelessness advocate.

Eve: Exactly.

Toggle: That seems like a bit of a problem.

Eve: For sure. and you know, a lot of it goes back to I’m fortunate enough to have had technology, and the ability, to search for housing, because I had people who were able to help me get to and from, At least for the beginning portion, you know, wherever I needed to go to get to appointments, meet up with a case manager. that was a great boon.

even though a lot of the online resources were broken and I couldn’t figure anything out for the longest time other than what I’d been told by my friends.

Toggle: Let me ask you this then. for people listening who might be worried about being in a housing crisis of their own, what do you recommend they do to explore what’s available to them where they are?

Eve: my favorite thing is libraries. generally libraries and librarians will have a wealth of knowledge about a lot of the local advocacies, food pantries. general resources. So I love libraries. they’re wonderful resources. First of all. community and health fairs, typically you’ll find advocacies or resources posted up tabling, at a lot of them.

And of course that is super case specific. If you can’t get out to them, you just can’t. but if you are able to, that is a great option, even if you’re just going and meeting up with them to get involved. I would also say calling 2 1 1, or going to two one one.org. I will say just as prefaced, because myself and Toggle looked into this, during researching of this episode, even two one.org is incomplete.

Typically it’s a lot of statewide rather than city or county specific. as well as 2 1 1 typically having awkward office hours, that they’re even open to call.

Toggle: Yeah, it was very funny because we would, we just tried different random places all over the US and most of ‘em do work, so it’s still worth trying. But then there were some states like down south that were like, this is a dead link. so some of the same issues, but I would say we were more successful, you and I, going through two on one.org than the other ways I was trying to find this information.

Eve: Yeah, absolutely. 2 0 1, at least for statewide resourcing is super helpful. I would also say. if you can, getting out to food banks or, food pantries and asking about, different agencies that they would be partnered with, that they know are active or open. at least in my community, a lot of the different partners are super, super connected. we are under a COC, which is called a continuum of care.

and a lot of the different partners meet monthly, bimonthly, weekly depending on theriotype of meeting to get together, share resources, share information, share statistics. so typically a lot of the food pantries are somewhat connected with those. and lastly. Possibly also the hardest one that I could recommend to you, is relying on friends and family.

Toggle: There is genuinely no shame in asking. it’s one of the most difficult things to do, especially if you have difficult friendship situations or family situations. but Yeah, that’s one of the things we really emphasized as part of our last episode is You have a community, use your community, you know your friend group, you know the extended, group of people around you and that you essentially have a network of people if you have friends, right?

Eve: yeah, absolutely. in some of my more dire times,all I had were my closest friends. who gracefully and openly offered for me to stay with them, whether I’d asked or not. and it meant an extreme great deal to me. especially when I was able to figure it out without that assistance, I was just, even the more grateful to them.

any kind of community that you can build around yourself. and like was said in that previous episode, if there’s anything that you can do, anything that you can provide in that situation like cleaning or, any kind of assistance around the house, if you can’t pay at that time,anything that you can do to make it as mutually beneficial as possible.

Toggle: Absolutely. And we’ve harped on that too, you guys. echoing a little bit of what we’ve said before. Now, obviously we are a US-based program and your advocacy is based in US homelessness programs, but we do have an international audience. And now I know this is obviously not your area of expertise, but just to talk a little bit about things for our international listeners, how do the resources in the US compare to other places around the world?

Do you, doesn’t there be like every place in the world? Just if you know anything about what’s going on. Elsewhere. It might be interesting to have that comparison.

Eve: so countries that have typically low homelessness rates, uh, would be ones like. And once again, this is not my area of expertise, but these are some statistics that I’ve pulled, just so that I can give some kind of an explanation for our international audience. Japan, is constantly cited for having one of the lowest rates with recent figures being around two homeless individuals per 100,000.

Finland and Norway both, very well known for their housing first approach, which is also what I’m going through. it is operated more so in those countries as a main source rather than transitional or, shelter for, unhoused individuals. And, they’ve had a lot of success with that.

let me ask you real quick. You mentioned Japan is two out of every a hundred thousand.

Toggle: How does that

compare to us

like how good is two out of every 100,000.

Eve: So Japan having roughly two to 100,000, America has roughly 230 to 280 unhoused individuals per 100,000 population.

Toggle: So like a hundred times.

Eve: yeah.

Toggle: Big difference. Okay, now I understand for sure.

Eve: Uh, whereas for a nons statistical purely numerical, instance in 2024, the approximate count for, unhoused individuals in January of 2024 here in the United States was 771,480.

Toggle: Wow.

Eve: Versus Japan’s, roughly 2,591 individuals as of January, 2025.

Toggle: And then now of course we have a larger population, I believe, than Japan by a good bit. But that is quite a discrepancy even if you balance that out.

Eve: Even statistically there is quite a large discrepancy.

Toggle: wow. And how, what about, the Scandinavian countries you mentioned,

because I think you mentioned before, they had basically solved their own homelessness crisis.

Eve: yeah. The most recent data that I can find at least, is in 2020. Norway had approximately 62 unhoused people per 100,000 inhabitants. this rate has also been steadily declining. the total number of people experiencing homelessness in Norway at least, was 3,325. Of course, Norway is much smaller than the United States, but even still, that’s a 50% reduction compared to 1996 when the rate was around 150, per 100,000, which was around 6,200 total people in the 1990s.

Toggle: Wow. So they’ve seen a lot of success with the housing first way of doing things.

Eve: yeah, absolutely

Toggle: it makes me wonder why we don’t do more of that, but I guess.

Eve: While there’s no single worst country for homelessness due to the differing definitions, data collections, Pakistan, Syria and Nigeria often rank highest for sheer numbers per capita. But those are typically more driven by conflict, poverty and natural disasters, which isn’t something that on a large scale happens so often, at least in the United States.

Toggle: right. Exactly.

Eve: I don’t know. Exactly where we rank if we’re in the middle of the pack. But it,I think we’re roughly middle to low in the statistics of air quotes best homelessness response.

Toggle: And yet it feels, one thing that we discovered is that, all of these things exist. there’s rapid rehousing and transitional housing and all these wraparound services, food banks, rapid centers, but they’re not consistent. if I’m in one city versus another city, what’s available may not be the same.

Eve: if you take even two cities of medium size, roughly similar population, There will be vastly different resources allocated, the notice of funding opportunity, which is how a lot of these advocacies get funding, is a countrywide competition to essentially garner grant money, to assist. The unhoused. That being said, certain cities take two of a similar size, let’s say medium range, will have very different resources allocated to them simply due to their prior performance, in housing, individuals and families, as well as how effective they were overall as a nonprofit.

Toggle: In other words, you have to prove that you deserve the funding and,not everyone meets the threshold of requirements. And then so places get defunded or, maybe some of these places just end up not ex like these resources just stop existing.

maybe due to poor management, but also maybe just due to not being able to prove the efficacy of the program to the satisfaction of the government, which is funding them.

Eve: Yeah, absolutely. and not to get too political, but different policies within states versus, the administration in charge at the time, can receive very different prioritization.

Toggle: Right now, that kind of brings us to our next thing. ‘cause we’ve been planning this episode for, since January of last year, so almost a year. so we had a good idea of what we wanted to talk about. I really wanted to focus on what programs were available and how to get to them. However, in the wake of the government shutdown in the US the situation for homelessness, advocacy changed drastically.

And it was surrounding this notice, what is it called?

Eve: The nofo or the notice of funding opportunity.

Toggle: The notice of funding opportunity. So what, I am obviously not the expert here. What exactly has been happening?

Eve: So first, let me start by describing the notice of funding opportunity. Essentially, like I described earlier, it is a, uh, competitive grant cycling, where the notice of funding goes out to all of the different advocacies. They Submit their information generally to their lead agency and then their lead agency submits it to HUD or Housing and Urban Development.

and they’re nationally ranked, like I said, it is very competitive. oftentimes advocacies that cannot prove that they have been effective or are not in line with the current goals of HUD or the current administration at that time, can lose or gain funding depending on how they operate.

Toggle: And what, just for people who don’t know, what is hud.

Eve: Housing and urban development, which is the, governing body, which is a sector of the government, which is dedicated to. Pretty much like it states in the title, the Housing and Urban Development of the United States of America, including but not limited to IES for homelessness.

Toggle: So basically they’re the people who provide funding for housing in the us and What the Nofo is basically a call to prove that you are effective in what you’re doing and that your programs meet the guidelines set forth by the government.

Eve: Yes. and if you are a new agency or a new advocacy that is cropping up, you have to prove that, you have a solid foundation, a solid backing, typically a match funding, from private or public donors, to be able to receive funding from the government to begin operating as an advocacy.

Toggle: Right now, some of you may already be predicting where this is going, but. What has changed this time when the NOFO came out?

Eve: When the NOFO dropped this year, there was an intense 180 of policy and practice in the way we nationally, statewide, and locally operate due to top down being presidential to hud, to us changes,

queer Bipoc and Harm reduction advocacies have been targeted, as no longer eligible to compete, as they do not fit within this administration’s view of how homelessness and housing should operate as well. There was a massive change in the prioritization of what kind of housing assistance there even is. Rapid rehousing has been targeted in favor of transitional housing and shelters. Not only that, but cooperation with law enforcement such as denying individuals who have criminal records. individuals who may be undocumented or are currently applying for a Visa, As well as individuals who have addiction, are further targeted by these policy changes. basically what this does is cause massive delays, in both the opportunity for grant funding and the opening of the actual application process. That being said, just to, put in there, in between writing and recording, HUD fully withdrew the notice of funding due to pressure mounting from lawsuits, including by agencies such as National Alliance to End Homelessness, 25 different states, as well as multiple cities leaving us in the advocacy field very confused and without much headway.

Um.

Toggle: It’s just whiplash, right? So essentially they came out with this whole slew of changes and, apologies for those of you’re listening. We have been increasingly accused of being way too political on this show. And indeed this is very directly politically motivated. We have linked the actual think piece that caused this change in the show notes for you, if you want to take a look at it, which basically suggests that all homelessness advocacy is essentially a, a vehicle for leftist propaganda or something like that.

that document that was made was not like the deciding factor. I believe it was more so the, like, project 2025 and the general gist of the government’s overall movement rather than, the document.

Eve: The document is still important, in so much as, it essentially calls out a lot of, different advocacies who have promoted gbt, qia plus queer bipoc, uh, oriented,those advocacies which are in favor of, women’s healthcare, such as like abortions, Like you could name it, as, left wing extremism. And that has caused a significant. Impact as well on advocacy efforts and if we even get funded, because the government is doing background checks on all of us, us being the, advocacies they can deny funding for any reason as listed within the Novo.

Toggle: What are some of the reasons they listed?

Eve: being in support of, or recognizing anything more than what the government considers gender binary supporting, practice involving harm reduction, having what they call,

racial preference. any kind of hint of leftist extremism, at least as they interpret it, as well as any other factor that they deem. it’s not inherently 100% clear.

Toggle: right, this think tank piece may not be the impetus as much as. Prevailing project 2025 motivations. But it does serve as a guideline of what is being targeted. So harm reduction, queer advocacy, anything that targets is. So for instance, if, the majority of homeless people in your area are, Hispanic, for instance, and you have an advocacy that specifically is geared toward them, that is against the rules now.

Eve: Essentially. Yes.

Toggle: so all of these changes are coming like that, and then of course they get sued, which is what usually happens that gets pulled out. And so now like, are you even gonna be able to be funded? is, do you, is there a question of whether or not you’re gonna be funded in the new year?

Eve: all that to say, the , the deadline for submitting any of this information to EAPs, which is the government’s HUDs, portal for the applications, was meant to be done by, I believe it was the 16th

yeah, the 16th of December. and then the final reviews would be posted in, January roughly. that would be when everyone knows if they’ve ranked, if they’ve gotten, Any of the funding. the issue being that, a lot of advocacies are going to run out before the deadlines, during the new year, in the time between, January 1st versus the time they even get the information that they will be funded versus even further, once they start receiving the funding.

at this point, an unspecified point in time, if it even returns. the consensus is that the notice of funding opportunity will drop. We don’t know exactly what it will entail, if it’ll be any better, if it’ll be any worse. what I can say is that unless you’re, like on top of everything they’ve asked, which next to no community here.

In America is, and with the super, super tight deadline that we had, the nofo was supposed to drop roughly in November. so we’re months out from when, when it was supposed to originally drop. It dropped in December. to get to your point, pretty much anyone is up for losing funding at this point

Toggle: ‘cause you were given a very tight deadline to do these 180 changes. Then it’s pulled. Now you don’t know what the new requirements are gonna be

Eve: or when those will drop.

Toggle: Or when you’re gonna have to be required to apply. So everything’s in limbo. And so again, people say, we’re talking a little bit too much about politics here, so I want to turn this around and say, why should any zoos of any political background listening to this program give a shit about the problems that homeless advocacy is facing right now with this, nofo situation?

Eve: to be frank, this is an issue that affects pretty much everyone, of course, disproportionately minority groups. But for just a moment, imagine missing even one paycheck. And this is out to all of you listening right now. imagine losing two, imagine losing your car. any one of us, except for, I don’t know, at the top.

10% of Americans, I don’t know the exact number, but most people here in America right now are one step away from being on the streets. regardless of your affiliations or regardless of your, political ideation or beliefs, this is something that affects everyone.

Toggle: Given that this does affect everyone in America, because again, most Americans do live paycheck to paycheck. A single paycheck could be devastating if you lose it, if you were to lose your job with no severance. I know some people are very fortunate enough to like, if they lose a job, they have a certain amount a month severance.

But I would wager that most of the people listening here aren’t in that situation. If you lose your job and you can’t find one, you’re in dire straits. So given that this affects everyone, what can we actually do about anything that’s happening? And what about people who find themselves in these homelessness situations?

How are they supposed to navigate those changes?

Eve: So I would say directly to the anyone side of this, talk to your representatives. Put it in a call, put it in an email. when you are online and you see, send this message to your representative. if it’s especially about homelessness or cause that you care about deeply in general, write to them.

Call them. Um. Run for office. Uh, not enough people, in my opinion are, especially our youth, are running, for offices where they can have, a lot of change, a lot of effect. We’re starting to see that trend more nowadays. but put yourselves in this position to be the change and be the difference that you want to make.

volunteer, there’s a lot of different things that you can do. at least there’s a lot of different opportunities out there for, being active in the community, and a part of the change that you want to see.

Toggle: And I will say, by the way, it’s a known fact that it takes very few phone calls to overwhelm a senator’s office or a representative’s office. if you do 20 in a day, they’re like, what the hell is going on? not just by yourself, with a group of people. it’s very small numbers that have an effect on your representatives.

So it’s definitely worth doing.

Eve: For sure.

Toggle: what about for people who are in the situation now where if they’re listening to this and they’re like, oh shoot, I was really in need of some of these resources. Is there anything they can do to navigate this situation?

Eve: as far as myself, at any point I am at risk of losing my job as it is. it’s really hard to say because,

this is such a delicate situation, that is ever evolving and will change day to day, week to week. so

Toggle: Like We, wrote our notes about this like a week or so ago. Things completely changed. Now that we’re recording, this isn’t gonna be released for another week or so, like things can change again.

Eve: Keep interacting with people who are unhoused, currently, you know, who have been,it is such a difficult, difficult situation to be like, this is what you can do. Person who is unhoused or family that is unhoused.

No, that’s fair. Absolutely. I mean, it’s a question that I’m asking ‘cause we want a solution, but the reality of it is it’s a, a day at a time. A step at a time. Yeah.

Toggle: It’s ever evolving situation. It’s just gonna take a little bit of navigating.

Eve: also the pain in waiting, not knowing what’s gonna happen is wow.

and just trying to do the work that we’re still doing, during this time of uncertainty. it’s just, Exactly what we can right now, which is business as usual, until we find out otherwise.

Toggle: exactly. I think that’s the best answer you could possibly have given to that question. I appreciate it and thank you very much Eve for coming and being willing to share and, be a little vulnerable there.

We really appreciate everything you do eve, like from top to bottom.

Eve, thank you so much for everything you do, the advocacy you do, and for being willing to come onto our show and speak to our audience as one of these vulnerable communities. we appreciate you so much more than I can say.

Eve: and thank you all at the Zoo TT community, for having me on, and allowing me to in allowing me to platform and discuss This incredibly complex situation with you all.

Outro

Eve: Thanks, friends, for listening to Zooier Than Thou!

Toggle: Our next episode is February 1st, and it’s the season 7 finale!

Eve: It’s bound to be celebratory, so don’t miss it!

Toggle: You can subscribe to our zooey RSS feed at rss.zoo.wtf. You can also check out our extensive bonus content at bonus.zoo.wtf! If you want to show your support financially, head on over to donate.zoo.wtf. Our show’s website is still zoo.wtf, and we have a form that enables anonymous submissions to the show on that website! You can also simply email us at [email protected].

Eve: Remember, if you decide to email us directly, be sure to include an alias we can use, and let us know whether or not we can use your email on our show! If you’re not sure what we need, just use our website form for guidance!

Toggle: Share this episode with a zoo who’s down on their luck and worried about housing!

Eve: I’m Eve, and I’ve never howled on mic before.

Toggle: And I’m Toggle, and I’m trying to remember when we started howling at the end of the show, and you’ve almost finished listening to Zooier Than Thou. Stay defiant, fellow zoos, and be kind to one another. It’s the sexiest, zooiest thing you can do. We’ll see you next time you feel like howling at the moon!

Both: Awoooo!